Kog'maw and Ashe are how ADC should be

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Phreak

Shoutcaster

07-12-2013
1 of 21 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by DuncanD View Post
  1. No escapes. An adc should have to position well; if you get caught as kog or ashe you're generally ****ed
  2. ****s out damage (yes, even ashe does, especially with her long range + kiting)
  3. Doesn't have knockbacks. What the ****, riot?
  4. Squishy. Doesn't have ridiculously high base hp

Try taking ashe or kogmaw top lane; they will get demolished
I have no idea why those are your defined roles. Ashe and Kog'Maw are ludicrously far apart.

Ashe is a champion with her own self-peel, an initiation ultimate, and the lowest DPS of any of our AD Carries, and more CC than 80% of the champions in the game.

And again she has a gigantic stun + AoE slow, plus a permaslow. She has amazing escapes. She's in the top half of "safe AD Carries"

Meanwhile, Kog'Maw has limited uptime on his damage and range, extremely limited survival tools, but the highest DPS+Range in the game for an ADC. He can snipe, scales off of entirely different stats from Ashe, and generally is completely different experience.

Honestly there's a ton of room to play within the actual constraints for an AD Carry: I'm ranged, my primary role is damage, and I tend to be squishy.

See, here comes the fun part. What rules you break, bend, or accentuate makes it different. We can all look at Graves, Draven, and Ashe and see that, while they fulfill a fairly similar role, they're all wildly different.

Graves tries to bend the squishy and ranged rules. He's actually this quasi-melee champion whose damage goes up when he's in close range, and his durability grows during the fight. He can start from a distance, jump in for that quick burst, and then try to skirt around again. You're still building BT, LW, things like that. You're not getting a Sunfire Cap and Randuin's Omen. But you're incentivized to run into the middle of the enemy team once in a while. It's a lovely design.

Look at Draven. He's the ultimate in risk. He has these really minor utility abilities that can technically save him if he's really good, but he throws out all chances at safety just for more damage. If he gets going on you, he's crazy. But it's just so hard to get there. He is the epitome of glass cannon.

Look at Ashe. She sacrifices speed, mobility, and damage for utility and safety. She's long ranged. She has scouting tools, she has initiation. She's the only AD Carry who can really start a fight. It's hard to reach her. She fights you from far away and you're slowed before you ever reach her. Her damage output isn't Draven level, is isn't Kog'Maw level, but with items, it's just enough to make you respect it. She trades out the #1 reason people tend to pick up AD Carries, and puts it to its bare minimum, and says, "Okay, but here's what I can do, and it's amazing."

Why is the rule that they have to deal tons of damage and have no mobility? Why don't squishy champions get to be evasive? Vayne is thrilling. Vayne is cunning. She is probably the best duelist if she plays it right. She constantly repositions herself in fights. She's short-ranged, so she has to. She can't do anything without being in range of counter attack. Everything is a risk to her. Graves goes in close for burst and has a bit of tankiness to back him up. Vayne has cunning, mobility, and stealth. Vayne is rewarded with amazing clean-up power if she can make it work, but it's a difficult task to make it there.

So why again do all AD Carries have to be the same as each other? AD Carries are not auto-attacks with legs. AD Carries are living breathing things who, while their primary goal is damage, the amount, safety, and side utility are all tradeable commodities that make each one unique. Kog'Maw is not Ashe, Vayne is not Draven, and Tristana is not Ezreal. They all do different things and have different trade-offs. Your rules, while a few of them are somewhat accurate, aren't really very good IMO. What's so sacred about a knock-back that it can't be on an ADC? Ashe has a global range stun but is apparently your shining example of a perfect ADC. Kog'Maw has, or at least had, the highest base HP of any AD Carry in the game.


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Prexzer

Senior Member

07-12-2013

Phreak saves the day!


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SmokingPuffin

Senior Member

07-12-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by APremonition View Post
I just think the ones with dashes need to have weaknesses like lower damage or utility aka trade-offs.
They do.

In fact, as I check lolking this morning, the top 5 AD carries by win rate all lack dashes: Draven, Twitch, Kog'Maw, Miss Fortune, Varus.

Things you get access to when you don't have a mobility move:
1) Big scary damage ultimate (e.g. Twitch, MF)
2) Hard engage (e.g. Ashe, Varus)
3) Trading ability that resets AA (e.g. MF, Sivir)

Caitlyn and Ezreal are more popular, because they let people have bad positioning and still win fights, but it's not at all clear that they are better than the ADCs without escape moves.


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Danishthethird

Senior Member

07-12-2013

Well, then, Phreak.

I guess you're trying to say each ADC is niche right?

But why does mobility have to be niche in each ADC?


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Holy Malevolence

Senior Member

07-12-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phreak View Post
Ashe is a champion with her own self-peel, an initiation ultimate, and the lowest DPS of any of our AD Carries, and more CC than 80% of the champions in the game.
That's like saying the smallest elephant.
Even if it's smaller than its peers, it's still by all rights huge.


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Vanilla

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Senior Member

07-12-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phreak View Post
*snip*
I love you Phreak.


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Spitsonpuppies

Member

07-12-2013

Phreak, as I'm sure you've noticed, GD has taken a liking to being against everything ADC. That team didn't have an ADC? That's why they lost. The enemy ADC outplayed us? Lol, it's just cause they're ADC. I appreciate you posting, but no one will take what you have to say to heart, unfortunately.


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SlVIR

Senior Member

07-12-2013

so phreak what role does vayne fill?

explain her in terms of balance.

and don't say her early game is bad it is embarrassing.


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CannibalMoose

Senior Member

07-12-2013

phreak gets phreaky


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Holy Malevolence

Senior Member

07-12-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luscious Lenny View Post
so phreak what role does vayne fill?

explain her in terms of balance.

and don't say her early game is bad it is embarrassing.
It is bad!


When compared to other ranged AD's.