Olaf Design 101: Keeping axes in line

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UATderpyderp

Senior Member

07-10-2013

Copy pasting what I said in "Let's talk about Olaf" since it gathered no attention, and since I'm REALLY WORRIED NOW because Smashgizmo is about to destroy the feel of the champion. Please GD, make me proud.
I've edited and changed some text.


Quote:
Okay first things first:
http://www.lolking.net/search?name=xemozu

I was Xemozu on this server before I transferred to LAT N (Jesus guys, can't you implement cross-server posting for accounts? Because right now this is my cousin's alternate account, and it isn't really ideal to be posting from it)

Right now I'm sitting at diamond I in LATN, and I am STILL WINNING with Olaf from the jungle. In fact if you guys could check logs from S2 and S1, I think I could easily be the player with the most Olaf games on the world.

So, now you know that I have as much experience as I could possibly have with Olaf: Here are my suggestions:
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You should make him completely health cost based, I haven't thought yet about a fury implementation.

Passive: Perfect as it is, in my opinion.


Q: Axe spamming is kept in line currently by having him use mana. Make it Cost flat health, give it the kassadin/kog ult treatment, with scaling up to a cap. Also, make the "debuff" go off relatively quickly, which allows you to make decisions based around risk/reward.

With this implementation the cost of the first axe is almost meaningless, while the fourth consecutive axe removes a moderate amount of HP, this base cost would obviously have to be balanced carefully around the current skill level (So that maxing it is a viable option). Spamming up axes mindlessly kills you, literally.

How to reach a nice balance that allows for counterplay on this spell? Simple: Reward Olaf for hitting consecutive Axes: First axe on an enemy champion will not be a potent slow, and won't deal significant damage (Perhaps it could hit for 1.2 of his total AD, no base damage) However, after hitting a second axe in a row, the damage AND slow would increase, in a way that the cap can be hit after 4~ axes ideally. Thematically, you could say he just starts throwing them with more "fury" each time he hits them.

How does this translate into gameplay? First, it's an unique, cool mechanic that works similarly to Vlad's E, except it's actually rewarding your aim since it's a skillshot.

Secondly, your opponent has a chance to escape your axes, since the slow starts being weak up to the second axe or so, making it a non-binary "permaslow" (Dependent on the skill from both players. This "Think before throwing" mechanic can be further emphasized by increasing base cooldown, and increased cooldown reduction when picking up axe.

Thirdly, Scaling damage means you won't have a high upfront burst by Q spamming while sitting on the same spot ignoring punishment, and because you're as well losing your hp it will not always be a good trade.

If you still think the minimum distance is necessary, then it's fine by me, the nerf can be compensated in other areas, SCOUTING WITH AXES should be kept, it's an incredibly important, and undervalued aspect of Olaf's Q.

W: Make it cost percentage of current HP, so that there's actually some thought process before using it at low/high health.

Perhaps lower the innate lifesteal/spellvamp it gives, and rework it into giving a percentage of your missing HP per hit (This should work with Axes/Reckless swing, as a way for him to recover some of the HP he is losing by using his skills) By doing this, you also get to deal with the unmovable state he achieved at top lane when he got ahead, via sustain, since he'll need to hit low HP in order to recover quickly, allowing for some burst counterplay.

Remove his 30 armor pen from Ragnarok, and switch it into W, Adjust numbers obviously, and keep it the way it is (Only active when the skill is active)

Also HP Scaling should be kept. Switch it to bonus HP and compensante with a big ratio, ideally Olaf should be healthy, not innately tanky, except perhaps for the duration of his ultimate. (He's a berserker, the first thing that crosses everybody's mind when they hear that word is high damage and low defence)


E: Thought a lot about this one, and it's kinda frustrating for the opponents. If you get really ahead in levels relative to the other team, your maxed E at level 9 will feel REALLY UNFAIR on everyone else. On the other hand, you won't notice its damage if it's the other way around (Everyone outleveling you).

First I want to get this out of my chest: You should give Olaf some kind of reward, or buff for landing the killing blow with E, I'll leave it up to you to think what should it be, it can even be something minimal, like a 50 hp heal, but honestly Killing somebody with E is REALLY SATISFYING due to how powerful the spell feels (Visual-guise) Olaf shouldn't have to go into support/tank role, and this would give players a reason to think that he can and more importantly SHOULD get kills.

Now, returning onto the former problem: E will either tick or destroy the enemy health bar depending on the level difference. How do we deal with this?

Give it a lower base, and then Adjust it to scale somehow with your BONUS AD, while still hurting your own HP. The skill level up should just decrease CDR and increase ratio of Damage dealt vs. Received Damage What does this mean?

Olaf players won't end up motivated to go either HP tank or Glass cannon. Build too much HP and your true damage nuke will end up lackluster, build full AD and you'll kill yourself after two Es. Ideally you'll have to hit a balance.

Smash idea of reducing CD with autos is decent, however lowering damage so much is not. There are other ways to attack the skill overall power, like lowering the ratio of Damage dealt vs Received. I'm actually FINE with a close ratio, This skill should be the most important in this Olaf's kit, why?
1) Allows for Health management: Olaf should be all about managing his HP levels, and the low CD would allow for this (Relatively low CD, obviously I'm not asking for a 3 sec CD huge true damage nuke). I Personally I spam E on minions when trying to finish quickly a game, if I'm attacking the enemy inhibitor or so, because I know the attack speed from my passive is very meaningful, and to be honest it feels good to make those kind of decisions, because you know the enemy could run with homeguard onto your ass and kill you with a single spell[/I]

2) More Risk/Reward play: You can blow up a tank relatively quickly with a low CD E, however, with ratio that's close to 1/1 You would most likely be killed, Specially if the tank has considerably more HP than you. You'll also have to think whether it's worth it to spam it on squishy targets (ADC, APC) since they both have low resistances (Which in turn means the "true damage" advantage won't be as meaningful vs them) And given that situation, you'll be thinking about how LOW you want your hp to be vs. them. One of the most entertaining aspects about Olaf, is surviving a teamfight while always staying around 1/3 of your HP, because unlike Tryndamere (A champion that resembles somewhat Olaf's resilience when fighting at low HP), you know you could have died at ANY moment in the teamfight. It's a huge adrenaline rush for anybody that loves the champion as much as I do.

R: With the armor penetration switched to W, I've thought about giving it something more unique while ulted: His R animations shows him attacking with his two axes at the same time, it looks so freaking cool, and if there was a way to balance base stats/other spells numbers without hurting him too much, would it even be possible to have attacks apply on hit effects twice along with a low increased % damage while he's on Ragnarok?

I'm specifically looking at his W and lifesteal, being able to regen twice during the ult would allow for clutch play and reward for proper use of R instead of activating the second the teamfight starts.

Actually, I think you guys have the tech to make it just do something like "W HP Lifesteal/Recover is doubled during Ragnarok" This would feel really nice.

HOW TO SOLVE COUNTERPLAY PROBLEM: Smash is currently frustrated about his ultimate having no counterplay for the enemy team, there's a way to solve this without making the player feel like **** when activating it (The current iteration in PBE, where Olaf loses his passive resistances): Switch it to the way it was when Olaf was released, FLAT DAMAGE REDUCTION.

What does this mean? He's still as effective vs. AD carries, and perhaps DOTs, but he becomes much more vulnerable to burst, which allows for the enemy team to actually focus him with some AP/AD nukes. There's counterplay to both sides in this, Olaf can try dodging skillshots/AOE spells to lower received damage, while ignoring most of auto attack damage, WITHOUT FEELING gimped by his ultimate.
@ Riot: You can cross my IP with the IP of any of the last posts made by Xemozu on the forums if you need proof that I am who I claim to be.

@ Smashgizmo: Please do think thoroughly about removing mana, if you for some reason you dislike my Q solution I can come up with another one (Although I don't see any problem right now given the proper numbers on these three things:
1) Initial slow/Damage
1) Initial health cost
2) Scaling health cost formula.
Keeping his mana bar just for his axes feels clunky and unintuitive. Even Hashashin made a post mocking it.

Edit: Made a reddit post: http://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflege...mond_i_player/


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HerdofCATS

Senior Member

07-10-2013

You know, Olaf was one of my favorite champions to play until they ruined him. It is quite sad.

Keep up the good fight against these changes good sir!


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UATderpyderp

Senior Member

07-10-2013

Thanks and bump, GD is moving fast today


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direct TV

Member

07-10-2013

Bump, these ideas are great


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Balfourthejedi

Senior Member

07-10-2013

bump


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UATderpyderp

Senior Member

07-10-2013

Support from an S2 Plat Player. Thanks.


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Ranzeikou

Junior Member

07-10-2013

Great ideas, I hope SmashGizmo sees this. Sometimes power just has to be reallocated instead of removed altogether.


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UATderpyderp

Senior Member

07-10-2013

Thanks a lot, I don't even want a detailed response from Smashgizmo, I just want him to READ this in its entirety. It's still not too late to change directions.
There's no point in doing a rework if he still ends up in a bad state, just like what happened with Kayle, she had to be reworked twice and so it was wasted effort / manpower / time / money.


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Mr Hatsu

Junior Member

07-10-2013

bump


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Cizjut

Senior Member

07-10-2013

About the axe not going trough walls:

The changes to Undertow look like ass. Sniping people with the axe is what makes Olaf delicious. Also abusing the minimum distance was incredibly fun and not so easy to do. I do not like what i'm reading.