New players watching LCS will think only 20 champions exist in LoL

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Zdravko TERA

Senior Member

07-04-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotTiza View Post
Let me rephrase my point, now that I'm on a short break: I am NOT trying to say that teams don't repeat picks, or that popular champions like Thresh, Elise, etc. aren't played most of the time. I am trying to point out that the existence of popular champions doesn't mean that there's no variety at all.

There is variety but not enough, there's like 60 champions we never see or maybe once because someone is trying to throw a curveball...that's a problem.


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RiotTiza

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eSports Coordinator

07-04-2013
6 of 13 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zdravko TERA View Post
There is variety but not enough, there's like 60 champions we never see or maybe once because someone is trying to throw a curveball...that's a problem.
I'd be interested to hear why you think it's a problem. Not saying I disagree, but I hear many people say this and I'd like to hear why you feel that way.


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Chrispys

Member

07-04-2013

Oh look, another game started... Another Elise, Draven, Thresh, Shen... and Jayce and the rest banned.

SO MUCH VARIETY ITS AMAZING. God this makes LCS so boring to watch.


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Jcupid1233

Senior Member

07-04-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Casturbater View Post
When there is 114 champions in the game? That's not even half..

TONS OF VARIETY.

EDIT: The thing you should be looking at is why these champions are being picked all of the time, not how many champions are being picked. It's clear that the champions being picked are mostly OP. Even C9 admitted to picking champions that are the strongest.

DOUBLE EDIT: Already got downvoted because I was telling the truth in GD. You can't argue that you see the same champion in every single game. Jarvan was picked every game I saw as well as jayce if he wasn't banned. There's a few more that were ALWAYS picked but those are the main ones I remember.

Don't worry, I upvoted you. But yes this is why I don't worry much anymore about expanding the champion pool every month. Game design/balance is HARD. mistakes will always be made on EACH champ. People will eventually find the best champ, or the champ that has the most "Design Debt" in the players favor(towards winning). They will also avoid the champ that has the most design debt skewed toward them losing the game (olaf, heimer, corki, etc...)

So yes It pretty much is the same 30-35 champions being rotated amongst each other.

I haven't seen a:
yorrick
heimerdinger
sivir
ashe
aatrox
akali
corki
alistai
ammmu
anivia
annie
brand
mundo
darius
fiddlesticks
fiora
teemo
fizz
galio
gangplank
garen
gragas
hecarim
irelia
jax
karma
katarina
leblanc
lissandra
malzahar
maokai
morgana
olaf
panttheon
poppy
rammus
riven
sejuani
shaco
singed
sion
skarner
soraka
syndra
taric
talon
urgot
veigar
vi
victor
warwick
wukong
xerath
xin zhao
zilean. . . .

give or take 5 or so

in the two weeks I've been watching the LCS

thats about 55-60 champs that don't get play.


out off 110. . .

if you go even further and take the champs which have been played or pick/banned the most in the whole four weeks of LCS/MLG play.

You'd probably see that number shrink considerbly. especially if you take the win loss ration in the LCS/EU/KR matches.

It doesn't take a rocket science to figure out that there are only a small number of champs (compared to the entire champ pool) that are really viable for high level play.

the point is. . .

I don't see a problem with that.

I think it's totally fine the way it is now. People are not bored, they're just saying that because "their team" lost again "op X champ" and want to blame the devs.

I'm sorry but perfectly balancing 110+ champs is imposisble. It's NEVER going to happen period. The top teams know this, and this will always be the case.

The balance team and champ dev team are doing their best.

But the point of the game itself isn't neccessarily to have every champ balanced. It's to create engaging content that you can play/use to play the game.

if you want to play the game competitively, then you're going to choose the best of the best champs to learn and play and win with.

That's all there is to it really. There's nothing the devs can do that will please you, because they are not Gods. first, They run a business, second, they create products that you choose to buy. eithe rthey're for winning in high levle tourneys or for playing in solo que or for fun, or for all three. It's up to YOU the player to buy which champ:

a)suits you
or
b)helps you win more
or
c)is fun to play
or
d)some combination of the above.

This game will never be perfect, and it doesn't have to be. . .

it doesn't have to be even CLOSE to perfect.

It just has to be fun.

and the Rioters are doing a damn good job of that (or else it wouldn't be the most played game in the world)

You have a choice. You can't have everything all at once. . .only God can have that.

And God you are not. . .but then again neither are the Rioters.


. . .soo. . . .get over it.


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Bullettime7

Senior Member

07-04-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotTiza View Post
Let me rephrase my point, now that I'm on a short break: I am NOT trying to say that teams don't repeat picks, or that popular champions like Thresh, Elise, etc. aren't played most of the time. I am trying to point out that the existence of popular champions doesn't mean that there's no variety at all.

There's a larger discussion to be had about pick rates and what it means. Part of it is player familiarity: as mentioned by a different poster, Reginald has used Karthus as a go-to champion pick for years, and that's not likely to change. Especially in a high-stakes environment, pro players are less likely to try something new when they feel like they can play something that works. Their goal is to win.

Another part of it is counterplay. If you know that the opposing top laner wants to play Elise and will perform very well on her, you want to stop him from doing that. How do you accomplish this? You can try to pick a champion or set of champions that can counteract Elise' strengths, you can ban Elise, or you can pick Elise first and take it away from them. If a team feels like they could also benefit from an Elise pick, this drives them to also learn Elise. For a champion that has a reputation for excelling in solo queue to also be a strong competitive pick, it becomes easy for pro players to get lots of practice and become comfortable with Elise. Suddenly, a whole bunch of LCS top laners can play Elise- and now there are more players who need to have Elise taken away from them.

Balance is also a concern- when a champion is imbalanced (either because it fits the common playstyle well/poorly, or because it's numerically strong/weak), you'll see their pick rate go way up or down accordingly.

This isn't meant to be a complete list- champion popularity is a massive interaction between psychology, social pressure, numerical balance, meta and playstyles, on and on, that I can't begin to cover in its entirety. However, I don't believe it's ever as simple as "everybody picks X champion because they're OP"
Which makes total sense. It's just a bit tiring from a spectator standpoint. Competitive variety helps retain interest but when we watch Jayce, Elise, Kennen, Draven, etc every game, you lose interest.

Link snagging Xerath for example just gave me renewed interest in watching. I might be but one spectator but I'm sure there are others who feel the same.

Seeing Reginald take Karthus or Dyrus's Shen isn't as big of a deal since we know that's a champion that has been a staple for a long time that won't change unless they're nerfed to the ground. But it feels like there's little reason for the teams to pick and try new things even in practice due to the strength of some champions, especially for long periods of time, which falls to your balance team to find how to make other picks more attractive as well.


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FalconPawwwwnch

Member

07-04-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotTiza View Post
I'd be interested to hear why you think it's a problem. Not saying I disagree, but I hear many people say this and I'd like to hear why you feel that way.
It's a problem because it shows that you guys are doing a rather poor job balancing the game out at the competitive level, to say it in the most blunt way possible.

Obviously this is a very difficult feat to accomplish but the game right now is in a horrid state of balance, mainly due to the range outclassing melee in almost very way possible thing


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YGY818

Senior Member

07-04-2013

Is Fiora a hard Jayce counter? Many websites and guide makers say so, yet we never see her played.


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Renaito Yuujou

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Senior Member

07-04-2013

Hey RiotTiza: If you're at the LCS studios, I'd like you to pass along my personal thanks to all the people who help make the LCS happen. The cameras often pan to the players, and you can see a couple of Riot employees standing behind them. I don't know these employees' names, but I want them to know that their work does not go by unnoticed! I noticed them! So extend my thanks to them!


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hashinshin

Senior Member

07-04-2013

Tiza the reason people are getting so annoyed isn't that you aren't making good points, it's that we all KNOW that the game isn't in a good place right now. You can't argue your way out of that. Yes, it could be worse, but nobody likes it when they're just trying to get you to say "yes, balance isn't the best right now" and you keep sidetracking it with useless stats.

Could it be worse? Yes. Could it be better? Also yes. Is it bad? Yes.


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Aithòs

Senior Member

07-04-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zdravko TERA View Post
There is variety but not enough, there's like 60 champions we never see or maybe once because someone is trying to throw a curveball...that's a problem.
It's not a problem though. You CANNOT make every champion competitively viable, it just isn't possible because the game is too fluid for that. In order to make every champion viable you'd have to:

1) never change the map at all, no jungle changes, buff changes, spawn timer changes, etc.

2) lanes would basically have to be set in stone, you'd have to have some way of knowing where people were going to go in order to balance champions against their respective "types" because otherwise the combinations are just too large.

3) every champion would have very boring and stale kits. Thresh? Sorry...the lantern is way too unique to ever balance unless everyone gets a shield slingshot vision soul collecting chain of amazing.

It is a simple fact that some champions will always be better than others. The powerful champions change with the items and patches, someone who is common s1 probably won't be in s2, etc. There are some picks we might never see in competitive but even in the six months I've played this game I've seen several rotations of champions come through LCS. Yes, a lot are the same (ADCs and supports are particularly stable because there aren't a ton of them) but there are also a lot of variety in mid and top laners because those positions are a little easier to fudge depending on matchups.

The problem with competitive play is you have to be ready to go 2v1 at any time. Some champions just can't 2v1, and making every champion capable of doing that would be a bad idea...

You see a lot more variety in challenger/diamond solo queue than in LCS, obviously a lot of the players are the same and will gravitate to their champion pool...but that's also the point of a champion pool. You master 4-5 champions instead of being lackluster with a dozen. You can't play professionally if you don't MASTER champions...