Let's talk about Yorick

First Riot Post
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DreamsOfGrandeur

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Senior Member

07-01-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
Here's a new pitch based on some of the ideas in this thread.

Basic idea: Yorick is a close-range, melee bruiser. He can use his ghouls to gain ranged damage and harass, but only by putting them at risk.

I also mocked up what it would look like when 3 ghouls were protecting Yorick defensively.

Attachment 720826
I looove the Endless March concept.

Even if the rest of the kit turns out different, please keep this new ultimate in.
It just sounds so cool, being able to summon a legion to fight for you.

It would also make Banner of Command a must-buy, and I totally love the idea of Banner Yorick.


As for the kit itself, the thought of Yorick "leaping" makes me laugh.
The balance of positioning ghouls and Yorick himself, and the inherent risks of it all, seem very well balanced.
I like how his passive starts him out with ghouls, which makes him feel more like the pet-champion most view him as he was intended to be.


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Heek

Senior Member

07-01-2013

Idea for Yorick's Ult:
Yorick channels for X seconds sending out Y souls (30+) in an area controlled by Yorick. Each time they hit an enemy champion they explode in an AoE for Z damage. While channeling Yorick is immune to all CC and cannot die (although he can take damage). Yorick does not benefit off of healing effects while channeling.

Explanation: This ultimate keeps the whole "control a massive undead army" ultimate while keeping the fun of being able to take down a champion with Yorick even after dying. How so? If a Yorick uses his ultimate just before he dies he is able to live for X seconds in his channel. In this time he can kill the enemy, bringing them down with him. The moment the channel ends Yorick will die as well (if he has 0 health).


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Thornmaelstrom

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Senior Member

07-01-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
Here's a new pitch based on some of the ideas in this thread.

Basic idea: Yorick is a close-range, melee bruiser. He can use his ghouls to gain ranged damage and harass, but only by putting them at risk.
1) I like how Yorick's passive means if Yorick intentionally restricts his range, both he and his ghouls are healthier for it; but BOTH of them open up if they are at a distance.
2) Shovel Strike leaping over the target is very interesting; it also feels COMMITTING. I certainly wouldn't walk up to someone then leap over them if my intent was to just walk away afterwards. Very good for opening up Yorick to more counterplay.
3) Moving Yorick's ghouls away from him when he gets access to the lifesteal-mark from E is also good. Both P+Q+E reinforce that Yorick is most definitely an auto-attack oriented champion.
4) During the duration of Yorick's Channel, I'd really like if he's actually digging a visible grave at his feet during the channel, this would be far superior to him doing any other usual channel animations like dancing around waving his shovel or humming while his lantern glows. This would really help with the flavor of a shovel-wielder.
EDIT: Ult isn't a channel, but I think casting it should have at least a very short channel, so you can watch him open a grave for said spirits to start spilling out of.

Also, I know Morello played some of Ankama's games in the past, but if you haven't before I'd recommend you check out the class Enutrof's Fingers; particularly a certain Ruel Stroud. They've got a completely different flavor than what Yorick is aiming for, but maybe you'll get some smidgeon of inspiration looking at other shovel-users.


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Xelnath

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Systems Designer

07-01-2013
40 of 123 Riot Posts

It seems like this is the major point of contention:

Is Yorick a melee fighter or a minion commander

Players who want a necromancer style of play want more ghoul commands.
Players who want a strong melee fighter want to ignore the ghouls.

Of these two categories, which one does League need more? Which one is the best "fit" for Yorick? I'll be discussing this more with coworkers tomorrow as well.


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Walrusaur

Junior Member

07-01-2013

Tossing n my two cents. With regards to the 2 kits you posted. Kit 1 really feels more in line with want i imaging yorrick to be. Hes not J4 commanding soldiers on a battlefield hes a surly vengeful lone wolf who just happens to spend all his time around dead folks. The ghouls should make him stronger but i don't like the idea of him being a 'general' archetype. feels like a totally different character.

I particularly like the Ultimate of the First kit. Its conceptually similar to his current ult but i really really like the idea of having a choice to use it offensively or defensively. PLus in my head i imaginge three zombies zooming across the rift Vi style and dragging a champ down to their grave is super awesome and very Yorick.

Couple of thoughts regarding the ranged/melee arguement. From a flavor perspective i much perfer them to be melee (i've always imagined yorricks minions as being more zombies than the ghosts they are currently). That said i can understand what your saying about spiderlings. My concern about making them ranged is that if they're supposed to be contributing a meaningful part of his damage then they'll have to be relatively squishy to compensate for the fact that they'll be inherently harder to get to thena melee minion. Which is ok until you consider that in a team fight yorick is gonna be in the melee so these ranged minions are going to spawn in the middle of the group anyways thus eliminating the beneits of them being ranged but leaving them w/ the squishy downside. WIthout an easy way to directly control the minions positioning I'm nervous about them being ranged (and if you control them directly just by alt clicking hten they just fell like shaco clones)

My last comment is with regards to the passive. I like the idea of a ghoul spawning on a regular basis but i dont really like the idea of the cooldown being lowered by attack speed. Nothing else on either one of the proposed kits really encourages AS, and current Yorick has never had much use for it either. Plus having it just based off of autoattacks just encourages mindless pushing. I'd rather see it be a chogath style where if a minion dies nearby it is reduced by 1 second, and maybe reset altogether when a champion dies?


Thanks for reading my rambling sorry its a little disjointed. Its really late but i really wanted to get my feelings down. I love yorick, and this is pretty exciting.


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armads12

Senior Member

07-01-2013

I think the ghouls having unique characteristics from each other is more compelling than 3 cloned ghouls. I would like for different decisions to be made depending on which ghoul is alive, but with the current setup I'm having difficulty thinking of ways to do so.

I will say you seem to have fixed much of the frustration of playing against Yorick.


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TechnMage

Senior Member

07-01-2013

My take on yorick is his gouls are much too short lived as it is now, however i don't like the idea of having to wait a minute and a half - if you are defending the base and unable to use anything but a spell or 2 to stop waves pushing - to get back your minions. I like your latest ultimate idea thematically - guessing they would be immune to spells and AoE splash - but It seems very difficult for lower skilled players to use effectively. I know i myself have trouble using the one ghost at times - making sure to stay in a good position yourself - let alone with 3 ghouls and an army to control.

I just got to this thread and read through all of the riot posts, so havn't had much time to think about it but controlling multiple things on a single hero seems a bit much to me(coming from a guy who likes to play Meepo... seems hypocritical)


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Cuix

Senior Member

07-01-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
Here's a new pitch based on some of the ideas in this thread.
There is SO MUCH going on with EVERY ability, including his passive! I like a lot of the ideas here, but there's so much to remember, both as a player and as an opponent. Like, he comes at me and then slows and leaps over and gets a speed buff and he can lifesteal off of me now but he takes less damage or something? Clutter.

Q: Take off the initial MS boost. That already removes a ton of tooltip clutter, improves thematic consistency, and adds counterplay.

W: Make it only occur around his ghouls, and add a health cost (to them). Again, thematic consistency, and it also adds risk/reward, not to mention some actual incentive to have his ghouls not on him at some point. As it stands, optimal strategy has them always in default position.

E: The mark/activate model doesn't need to be a thing on his kit. Alternative: The -ghouls- lifesteal/spellvamp off of all damage as a passive, and E can be cast on himself to absorb some of their health. This reinforces his control over them, his lack of scruples concerning the dead, and the fact that his ghouls are highly important to his play.

R: I feel like Sion's ult would work beautifully right here, but Sion already has it, so this will do.

Of course, if these changes are made then his ghouls should have more health and some base hp/5, prolly, but at least there's less clutter and more theme coherence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
Is Yorick a melee fighter or a minion commander
Right now, he feels like a melee fighter with weirdly strong zoning/poke. I assume that's what's being retained, since people already play him. If he was being made now, for the first time, then I'd easily suggest minion commander, since that's what LoL is missing.


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Heek

Senior Member

07-01-2013

@Xelnath Can you keep the 4 omens as the names of the Yorick's abilties. This may sound a bit strange, but those names have always been one of my favorite parts of Yorick. They really add to his theme.

Omen of war.
Omen of pestilence.
Omen of famine.
Omen of death.


It gives me shivers just thinking about how badass they are.


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Apocagenocitis

Senior Member

07-01-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
It seems like this is the major point of contention:

Is Yorick a melee fighter or a minion commander

Players who want a necromancer style of play want more ghoul commands.
Players who want a strong melee fighter want to ignore the ghouls.

Of these two categories, which one does League need more? Which one is the best "fit" for Yorick? I'll be discussing this more with coworkers tomorrow as well.
League has tons of melee bruisers, no minion summoners at all. Id keep him melee either way though.