Let's talk about Yorick

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Smoqueed

Member

06-30-2013

Im not sure how Id feel about Yorick's minions being casters instead of melee units. I suppose it could work but I like how he goes all in with the ghouls. I feel Yorick should be in the fray with the ghouls fighting to the death with the dead.


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Xelnath

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Systems Designer

06-30-2013
24 of 123 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by magik8ball View Post
Xelnath, I feel like you're just not getting how much fun it can be to play Yorick.
Great, then let's find a way to making playing Yorick *and* playing against Yorick fun.


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Whisla

Senior Member

06-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
Let's talk about Ghoul for a second.

Here's why live ghouls are utterly terrible:

1) They are attackable, but only live for a short time.
2) This means they are killable and can consume resources, but are difficult to kill
3) If you choose to kill them they gain their almost full effectiveness (autoattacking you)
4) If you choose to run away from them, you are kiting almost constantly because there's always some ghouls out.
5) When you do kill them, they don't grant gold

Here is what this remake will almost certainly NOT have:

1) I will not make short duration summons that are attackable
2) I will not make things with the ILLUSION of counterplay
3) I will not also punish players for focusing ghouls.

Based on those philosophies, I believe that temporary ghouls are a very bad idea and are endemically broken in league unless aoe damage or focused attacks one-shot them, in which case they are useless.

To look at our other summoner character, Zyra:

1) Her whole kit is about summoning
2) She still does damage even without seeds.
3) Her plants create specific areas to avoid
4) Her plans can be killed, dramatically reducing their damage output
4) You are compensated with gold for destroying them, since it probably cost you last hitting.

For this reason, I think Yorick's present ghoul summoning mechanism is very, very bad and should not be preserved. You have some cool ideas in here I like, such as every X spells, you get to summon a super ghoul who is meaningful. Ghouls who debuff the enemy are conceptually cool, but all that it means is "closing on yorick is bad". This is something which is already true, because of the existence of ghouls. (Like Elise spiders).

So I don't feel it really helps his kit.

Thanks for taking the time to share this.
Xer on some of your points I feel you need to do the exact opposite and ill give my reasons why.

1) They are attackable, but only live for a short time.
This can be fixed (only if it really is a problem) by your kit one or maken them like elise spiders

2) This means they are killable and can consume resources, but are difficult to kill
They are not difficult to kill. If laneing against a Yorick 1 auto is generally enough to get the minion out of the fight in time to stop it form doing any serious damage, most people however feel the need to use abilities on them and thats where the ghouls seem to force more form the enemy.

3) If you choose to kill them they gain their almost full effectiveness (autoattacking you)
This is just wrong. From my point above, because you hurt them for 25-50% of there life in 1 auto you can actually stop the ghoul from doing considerable dmg. When yorick uses multiple ghouls on you and you choose to go for the ghouls its about choosing wich one will do more, so the enemy should almost always kill the red or at least hurt it once to stop Yoricks sustain (although most if its already done)

4) If you choose to run away from them, you are kiting almost constantly because there's always some ghouls out.
I also find this to be wrong. early game yorick wont have the CDR to keep a constent flow of ghouls or the mana pool. It isnt really until 5-7 that a yorick can even spam his red (if leveled first) effectively to match some other champs pokes.

5) When you do kill them, they don't grant gold
This here i think should be fixed, if they can give champs like sion and nasus stacks (Like if nasus kills with Q) they should give some gold 2-5 would seem fair considering how easy they would be to kill.

Here is what this remake will almost certainly NOT have:

1) I will not make short duration summons that are attackable
This current version could be changed by giving the ghouls a longer duration for being up? or even having them not lose life over the corse of there lifespan, that then though would make them hard to kill or counter so we would be right back to making them act more like elises spider (im kind of ok with this idea)

2) I will not make things with the ILLUSION of counterplay
One of the things about yorick that makes him hard to counter is the fact that he scales off of attack damage but does magic damage. His green scales off of AP and his Blue does physical dmg while his Red scales off of AD then does magic dmg. This makes him hard to counter with anything other then just health.

3) I will not also punish players for focusing ghouls.
This concept to me is jsut confuseing... If you target elise spiders does she not punish you for it? If you target Hiemer turrets do they not attack u? Zyra plants (Minus melee>ranged) even punish you for attacking them. If you focus the ghouls over the champ it is a waste of dps and should be punished for it. Myabe not punish them for attacking them during a poke but that was already fixed in the above points.

Based on those philosophies, I believe that temporary ghouls are a very bad idea and are endemically broken in league unless aoe damage or focused attacks one-shot them, in which case they are useless.

To look at our other summoner character, Zyra:

1) Her whole kit is about summoning
Yoricks abilites work almost the same w/o a seed mechanic

2) She still does damage even without seeds.
Yoricks ghouls do dmg the same as Zyras seeds. The ability itself does the bulk of the dmg whilest the ghouls are a small addition. So if the ghouls are suppose to be "Most of the dmg" then the ghouls themselves need to be buffed and last longer and the abilities need to have the dmg reduced.

3) Her plants create specific areas to avoid
Although her plants are stagnent the ghouls are on a much smaller timer and radius. Most poeple that know how to fight against yoick will also use bushes to counter the ghouls.

4) Her plans can be killed, dramatically reducing their damage output
In the above points i point out that yes they do do dmg not as much as the ability itself so inturn if you kill them (6 hit minimum as apposed to the 1-2 for ghouls) dmg is lost but zyra still has the bult of her dmg to deal.

4) You are compensated with gold for destroying them, since it probably cost you last hitting.
Ya previous point states ghouls should give some reward for targeting.

P.S. sorry for any spelling mistakes not my strong point.


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Whisla

Senior Member

06-30-2013

Going to add, I dont believe Yoricks ult in its current form is actually bad. When used properly it lets him initiate or save his adc or his tank. Its uses are really good for team play. Edit: this really gives him a late game pressance for team fights.

I enjoy it but can understand if it got changed to somything like form kit 1 to make him more about ghouls.


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Xelnath

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Systems Designer

06-30-2013
25 of 123 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whisla View Post
I said this a couple of times, but dominus hits it on the head. Yorick to me is one of the best made champs in leagues, he takes a lot to be good (to the point you can play him late game) and alot to know how to paly against early lane phase.

Most people dont understand how to fight against sustain. Soraka lanes were a huge problem because of this. If you want to poke someone down in a lane until your comfortable going for the kill you have to be constent against a sustain laner like yorick. Darius wu ire jayce all do that incredibly well, most people just think "O hes going to just heal why do i bother?" instead of "I need to force him to heal on creeps and use up his mana or get the kill.

I do think one of the best things to do to fix Yorick is to make the ghouls do physical dmg instead of magic. Would be a much easier way for people to combat yoricks dmg output.
I would describe Aatrox as a good sustain character with clear weaknesses, yet players were still horrified and outraged in playing against him.

Look at the list of heavy sustain characters: AP Warwick, Vladimir, Yorick, Soraka, Irelia, AP Tryndamere.

When these guys are powerful, they deny tons of other characters the opportunity to have fun in-lane. This whole class of character has to either have a clear weakness or be considered a brick wall. That's just not cool. Again, the option here is nerf into the dirt or rebuild to have dynamic, interactive gameplay.

I'm a fan of the latter.


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ManRidingHorse

Junior Member

06-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
Great, then let's find a way to making playing Yorick *and* playing against Yorick fun.
Honestly, if that's your main goal there are other places to start. Mainly the part where more than half of the champions are not "fun" TO play. This is because picking them not only means that you are picking an "weak" champion, but also because you are inciting a lot of rage from your own teammates. Ex. zilean, fiora, etc.


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Trenonian

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Senior Member

06-30-2013

I wan't his ghouls to be where most of his power lies, as that is what makes Yorick unique.


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namalus

Member

06-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lutzburg View Post
Hi all, I spent this afternoon working on a kit concept for Yorick based on a lot of the themes discussed both by Xelnath and the community here. [...]
Awesome ideas, I like them. Though, I have some questions/concerns.
  • What's the initial omen state at champion level 1? No augmenting, just maintaining low cooldowns of his abilities? I'm talking about the situation when a yorick player decides to not level his omen ability - so not being able to toggle through the augmentations. What happens then?
  • Would you be mad if someone takes this suggestion and alters it a little bit? The way it is right now it reads a little bit like a 'magical revolver' - the ghouls being the magic bullets, augmented by the user, yorick being the revolver and the two active abilities being two modes of operation: damage/utility and sustain. My point is - maybe it's better to not have skillshots but to find another opportunity for counterplay?


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Seminole Sun

Senior Member

06-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
Let's talk about Ghoul for a second.

Here's why live ghouls are utterly terrible:

1) They are attackable, but only live for a short time.
2) This means they are killable and can consume resources, but are difficult to kill
3) If you choose to kill them they gain their almost full effectiveness (autoattacking you)
4) If you choose to run away from them, you are kiting almost constantly because there's always some ghouls out.
5) When you do kill them, they don't grant gold

Here is what this remake will almost certainly NOT have:

1) I will not make short duration summons that are attackable
2) I will not make things with the ILLUSION of counterplay
3) I will not also punish players for focusing ghouls.

Based on those philosophies, I believe that temporary ghouls are a very bad idea and are endemically broken in league unless aoe damage or focused attacks one-shot them, in which case they are useless.
Xelnath, I'd ask you to take a step back for a second because I think you've reasonably identified the problem but you've pre-judged a solution. I want to offer up a different (possibly better, possibly worse) solution just to prove a point (or possibly disprove it if I fail).

I'll grant you all your failings of Yorick. But consider that you could address them ALL with a relatively simple solution.

Ghouls die to a single auto-attack (possibly 2).
Ghouls are immune to spells and abilities.
Ghouls grant 3 gold (possibly 5 if two auto-attacks).

That would create all the counter play you need. The enemy could give up a single, non-scarce resource (1-2 auto-attacks). I believe this addresses all 5 of your points without the need for a drastic redo of Yorick.

I'm concerned that any rework you do that looks like the ones you've outlined doesn't retain his current flavor/character. He's an undead gravedigger who fights with a shovel. That speaks to me of a tanky, necromancer type.

As for the concern that he falls off late, I'd offer these two points:

1) My above solution begins to address that. There just aren't enough auto-attacks in team fights to wipe out his ghouls instantly.

2) Maybe that's okay. Does EVERY champ need to scale well into the late game to carry? Is that a decision Riot made somewhere along the line that every champ should be able to balloon into a carry? Why is it not okay to have a character who plays like a nearly immovable wall in lane and transitions into a mid game threat (once muramana is complete) and a late game tank (with things like Frozen Heart). People complain about him falling off but is that maybe their fault for not building him optimally? In the same way that "Shaco can't carry" is a result of people failing to transform him into a split pusher, Yorick's "poor late game" is a result of bad builds and a poor understanding of the character.

Lastly, you mentioned in a later post that his ult "depends on other people". So? Surely there's room in League for champions who's ults shine best in a coordinated team. I get that the solo queue experience of that may be poor, but if you're building the game as a team game (and I think you are) then you need to have some of that in the game to reward good team play.


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Lutzburg

Senior Member

06-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by namalus View Post
Awesome ideas, I like them. Though, I have some questions/concerns.
  • What's the initial omen state at champion level 1? No augmenting, just maintaining low cooldowns of his abilities? I'm talking about the situation when a yorick player decides to not level his omen ability - so not being able to toggle through the augmentations. What happens then?
  • Would you be mad if someone takes this suggestion and alters it a little bit? The way it is right now it reads a little bit like a 'magical revolver' - the ghouls being the magic bullets, augmented by the user, yorick being the revolver and the two active abilities being two modes of operation: damage/utility and sustain. My point is - maybe it's better to not have skillshots but to find another opportunity for counterplay?
Hey, thanks for reading and great questions! I had actually thought this through but failed to mention it in the kit description... If a Yorick player opts not to level their W, then the ghouls that are summoned would act as a fifth, 'plain' type of Ghoul that does not provide any additional benefits when used.

I also really like the revolver analogy! Q is his only skillshot, though, as E (Feast or Famine) is a targeted ability that automatically tracks down the target. That said, I would be open to changing Q from being a line nuke if a better suggestion presented itself. Any ideas?