Let's talk about Yorick

First Riot Post
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CynicalGiant

Senior Member

06-30-2013

Perhaps you should also ask in a poll what role people would prefer Yorick be when reworked.

I would love for him to remain a top lane bruiser. I hope you don't make him a support or a mid.


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Byakue1

Member

06-30-2013

Is Riot just removing lane dominant champions from the game?

Draven, Yi, and now Yorick; who is next?


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CynicalGiant

Senior Member

06-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Byakue1 View Post
Is Riot just removing lane dominant champions from the game?

Draven, Yi, and now Yorick; who is next?
Most lane dominance isn't balanced

Keep in mind that Renekton is still in tact as a lane dominater and Xerath is actually getting buffed to be even more of one.


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CaptainMĂ„rvelous

Member

06-30-2013

So Xelnath, considering you're reworking a minion-based champ, can you take a moment to talk about Minion control/minion AI?


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Xelnath

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Systems Designer

06-30-2013
21 of 123 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominus Arts View Post
At first I'd like to thank you Xelnath for your response. I'm really glad that my messages are being noticed during this debate about the future of one of my favourite champions.



To be honest I really do like his current mechanics with some exeptions.
I think on this point, we differ strongly. I do not feel like Yorick's mechanics are good at all.
Q - an attack reset + move speed buff)
* This ability is only good if you can already close to reach the target. Compare with Garen Q which allows you to close to the target to enable the rest of his kit.

W - instant AoE snare + minion summon
* This ability isn't bad except for the fact that it is unavoidable harass

E - instant DD + lifesteal nuke
* This ability has zero counterplay and is the reason Yorick is so incredibly frustrating to play against. Worse, the ghoul only makes the experience worse if the enemy wants to fight you head-to-head.

R - Clone ally, revive them if the ally dies
* The optimal use case for this spell is throwing it on an enemy who will live long enough for you to take advantage of the double AD. Then just as the duration is about to wear off, that ally dies and comes back again.

This is a double level of frustration - the scenarios to get the best out of it are narrow. The cases where you use it on yourself, it feels like a very bad Tryndamere ultimate.

Passive - +% dmg and %damage reduction
* This is the worst thing on his kit. It says "if you close on yorick, he's harder to kill than if you harass him"
* This means that players "intuit" how hard he will be to kill by poking, then all-in Yorick and see that Yorick is suddenly 15% more damaging and 15% harder to kill. This leads to constant frustration.

Quote:
After these tweaks an actual balancing can be made and it opens a few options:

#1. Lowering the ratios on skills while increasing damage from ghouls at the same time - this change would make his poke weaker, but will allow players to negate some damage by fooling ghouls or focusing them. Right now ghouls start with 300 movement speed so it's already pretty hard for them to catch up to running target anyway at the beginning of the game
This is an option, but Ghouls are intrinsically badly designed. Short duration, high hp, killable proxy units who punish you for attacking them.

Quote:
#2. Switching the spells origin might allow easier itemization - right now it might be quite hard for some players to itemize because Yorick's ghouls and his Q deal AD damage, while Inidial damage from W and E are Magic damage. Dealing pure physical damage would allow players to buy armor + hp items like Sunfire Cape/Randuins Omen, and at the same time Yorick would have to rely on items like Black Cleaver/Last Whisper to break through them. Also it might allow AP champions to perform stronger ganks on a champion that would stack armor against Yorick.
Okay, I can totally get behind this. You make a great case for Yorick doing only one damage type. It increases understanding of how to handle his character.

Quote:
#3. Lowering ratios on skills and ghouls damage while giving them additional factors, like... CC - this is pretty much what Yorick lacks in order to initiate/follow up fights or ganks. And this doesn't have to be some kind of big CC, even 0,5 second one would do.

Example:
Omen of Pestilence:
Yorick summons a Decaying Ghoul that arrives with a violent explosion, damaging enemies within 100 range and slowing them for 1.5 seconds. Enemies within 40/50 range from the center are feared/stunned/rooted for 0,5/1 seconds.
So you're basically suggesting that we narrow his invisible power and giving him more appreciable power in the form of CC? Okay. I can get behind that argument too. It depends on what kind of character want Yorick to be.

Quote:
#4. Adjusting Unholy Covenant itself, adding some sort of link factor - the further the ghoul is from Yorick, the weaker it is and when he passes certain range it dies automatically.

I think I wrote quite a bit, so I'm gonna wait to see if You like/don't like this track of thought until I move on.

Best Regards
I agree this is an incremental fix that makes ghoul kiting better, but it also means the optimal counter play is "always be running away from Yorick" - that feels really good to the Yorick player and really bad to the person who is zoned from lane.


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Krimson62

Senior Member

06-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
Let's talk about Ghoul for a second.

Here's why live ghouls are utterly terrible:

1) They are attackable, but only live for a short time.
2) This means they are killable and can consume resources, but are difficult to kill
3) If you choose to kill them they gain their almost full effectiveness (autoattacking you)
4) If you choose to run away from them, you are kiting almost constantly because there's always some ghouls out.
5) When you do kill them, they don't grant gold

Here is what this remake will almost certainly NOT have:

1) I will not make short duration summons that are attackable
2) I will not make things with the ILLUSION of counterplay
3) I will not also punish players for focusing ghouls.

Based on those philosophies, I believe that temporary ghouls are a very bad idea and are endemically broken in league unless aoe damage or focused attacks one-shot them, in which case they are useless.

To look at our other summoner character, Zyra:

1) Her whole kit is about summoning
2) She still does damage even without seeds.
3) Her plants create specific areas to avoid
4) Her plans can be killed, dramatically reducing their damage output
4) You are compensated with gold for destroying them, since it probably cost you last hitting.

For this reason, I think Yorick's present ghoul summoning mechanism is very, very bad and should not be preserved. You have some cool ideas in here I like, such as every X spells, you get to summon a super ghoul who is meaningful. Ghouls who debuff the enemy are conceptually cool, but all that it means is "closing on yorick is bad". This is something which is already true, because of the existence of ghouls. (Like Elise spiders).

So I don't feel it really helps his kit.

Thanks for taking the time to share this.

Comparing yorick to zyra seems a bit off to me... or at least what i think people want of it...

temporary things like zyras plants just wouldnt have the feel... the best comparison may be mini-tibbers... perhaps with a special effect if you use another ability on them.

Ex: (just using zyra type abilities as an example)

Q: Exhume spitter: Summons a ghoul that ranged attacks nearby enemies. can be moved again with the Q button (like moving tibbers with R)

W: Exhume biter: Summons a ghoul that uses melee attacks on an enemy can be moved with W. (like moving tibbers with R)

E: Dripping Flesh: When dripping flesh is fed to a spitter, it gains an aura granting yorick lifesteal temporarily and will apply all on-hit effects. When Dripping flesh is fed to a biter it grants a movespeed aura and slows enemies it attacks.


R: Army of the damned: perhaps something like a death prophet ultimate?


Granted these are just random effects that mesh with his current abilities... but the idea is there. People want something they can control and feels like it has meaning... and also counterplay (if they die)

Hopefully this makes sense without making it sound like i think people want something extremely specific


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Akuni

Senior Member

06-30-2013

So, I like the given 2 versions but there are some things that could be better imo. Currently no matter which version given the passive promotes passive gameplay for Yorick. Let's say you loose all ghouls in a trade, however lifesteal or movement speed is critical in that match-up. You'll have to wait for 30/60/90 seconds until you're lucky enough to spawn the ghoul you need again. That is why I'd like to see a on-hit like buff for his passive.

Example: Every 30 seconds Yorick readies himself to exhume a ghoul based on the next used ability. If no ability is used within 30 seconds a random ghoul is exhumed (Note: So he won't waste time/charge). Only one ghoul of each type can be exhumed at any given time.

This would enable Yorick to catch up again in the previous iterated example. It has a lot more control compared to the currently tested 'random' spawn.

Also I'm sad to see the 4 horsemen thing go (As you're changing the ult). Don't get me wrong a new ult will certainly fit him better but I'd like to keep this thematical pun on him. That or rename everything and use the thematic on another champ (Lich necromancer thingy anyone? Even though China is all sissy about that theme...).

Lastly, I am aware this is only for testing but Inky Stinky and Munch doesn't sound pretty... terrifying... I mean he's digging up ghouls. He's controlling death itself so... I just don't know if I could fear someone who throws ghouls at me which are named like that but that's a personal hunch of me

Cheers


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Awesomepenguin

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Senior Member

06-30-2013

i personally dont think yorick needs a rework... but ill answer your post.

Yorick Players:
What is the fantasy of playing Yorick?
when i saw him revealed i also thought of a necromancers, it brought back D2 memories.
What are the high moments of Yorick?
I absolutely LOVE his sustain, even though he isn't a power house i find his sustain fun, for the fact its what he does best. makes him a strong top lane but does not cause him to get overpowered late game.
What do you dislike most about playing Yorick?
he has mana issues early, but it is expected from spamming ghouls. sometimes if you don't win your lane early he falls off too hard and can't come back. he is very team reliant so it just doesn't work out well in solo Q.

Yorick Opponents:
What is the most frustrating part of facing Yorick?
the fact he never dies, but again its the part i enjoy most (talk about a double edged sword)
How do you win a game against Yorick?
you HAVE to out sustain him early game. if this means changing your build then do it. hitting you too hard? buy armor, still not enough get lifesteal or health pots. only way to beat him lane phase is to out sustain him.
What do you enjoy most about facing Yorick?
if you can force him to be behind he is stuck there forever.
How does Yorick lose a game?
getting behind, or his team not being able to keep up. if you take a team reliant champion and team just can't do well, then that champion won't be able to carry it. comes from being a non-power house.


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Golden Dawn Mage

Senior Member

06-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lutzburg View Post
Aww, thank you so much! Dare I inquire about which Rioter in particular I remind you of?
The wording of your sentences sounded like the way Morello would structure sentences in patch previews. I don't know why but it just reminded me of it.


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CynicalGiant

Senior Member

06-30-2013

I almost feel like you should make Yorick a combo of Udyr and Ori. Each ghoul is a stance of sorts. The ghouls would remain out and possibly give him a portion of the stats through his passive or allow him to get multiple of them out through killing minions or champions or monsters since I would imagine you would keep the ghouls relatively weak by themselves.

Q ghoul is mobile. Gives extra AS and MS per blue ghoul out.
W ghoul is CC and aoe. Gives some sort of CC and aoe component for each green ghoul out.
E ghoul is sustain and damage. Gives extra AD damage on hit with sustain/lifesteal for each orange ghoul out.
R is still an ultimate but it consumes the current ghoul to make him a supercharged version of that ghoul

The main thing personality and theme wise I would want is for his ghouls to have a voice and personality, albeit not too strong of a personality, and his lantern on his back to be talkative. Almost rude towards Yorick, constantly reminding him of how big of a failure to his family he is.

Like, imagine Yorick gets like 2-3 little blue ghouls surrounding him. These dudes are super hyper and piss off the lantern and Yorick off quite a bit.

Green ghouls are really depressing and make Yorick look happy by comparison.

Orange ghouls are ravenous and monstrous in personality that only want to consume everything.

Yorick would get that personality times like 3 when fused with them in his ultimate.