Let's talk about Yorick

First Riot Post
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enexes

Senior Member

06-30-2013

Yorick Opponents:
What is the most frustrating part of facing Yorick?
They coward away every time you go in on them.

How do you win a game against Yorick?
All in him 24/7 and try to win early game. if not just farm and wait for ganks. i haven't faced that many and i've only lost to a yorick once(the first time i played against him and didn't know how to fight him as riven.)

What do you enjoy most about facing Yorick?
beating them.

How does Yorick lose a game?
like someone said i guess. Their adc doing bad.


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SSJ II Joft

Senior Member

06-30-2013

I'm a bit late in the game, but here is my two cents as a Yorick main.

playing as him:

1) The sustain and zoning ability that he has. He doens't necessarily have a gap closer, but he doesn't need it. Omen of pestilence prevents ganks on most occasions (if you play smart). When fighting a champion who relies on farming, he does his job very well. He also counters teemo <--THANK GOD HE EXISTS FOR THIS REASON.

2) being ganked under the enemy tower post 6 and getting a double kill. seeing your carry being focused and ulting him. countering teemo. going back to base for the first time and flat out buying a manamune (doens't happen often, but it does happen).

3) after about level 15, his damage falls off and the only use he has is being tanky with some slow and an ult for your carry. while this works for Yorick because of his passive, he doesn't contribute much to team fights and is incredibly likely to be more of a burden than a saving grace. Yorick is a much better tank than he is a bruiser, mostly because things like black cleaver and lifesteal/spellvamp don't work with the main part of his kit; his ghouls. Granted the omen of famine heals enough as is, but you get what I'm saying. I would be okay if the scaling towards the later levels of famine were lowered and lifesteal started working with yorick's ghouls.

playing against him;

1) Once he gets a tear, you're practically farming under tower. Having a jungler gank and kill him is the only real way to hold him back. When yorick falls behind, he doesn't come back.

2) Wait until mid-late game. GG no re. also, shutting him down early works like a charm.

3)I'm in bronze, so most Yorick players are terrible. They don't even know how to use they're ulti to max potential. plus knowing that at least one of the players on the other team will be useless after 30 is pretty relaxing.

4) His team can't win their lanes. If you can effectively shut down the enemy mid lane and the enemy bot lane, yorick is the best choice to shut down top lane. But Yorick is one of the only top laners that *need* the other lanes to be shut down. The ADC doesn't have to do good in lane, he just needs to get fed and yorick's ult helps with that. I've assisted in getting my ADC that was 0/5 a penta.


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Hamut

Member

06-30-2013

My thoughts on the two kits

Common elements:
The passive is exactly what yorick needs. His ghouls feel relevant and like a real part of him.
Omen of War (active, no ghoul) Good change. moving the movement speed upfront makes it a viable soft engagement tool and chasing tool (on live, it's difficult to chase when you need to get into melee and autoattack in order to do so).
Omen of Famine (active, no ghoul) Good change, adding counterplay to Yorick's healing is good but I worry that sustain that is dependent on first landing an ability and then autoattacking the target will be too difficult to pull off. In other words, while this is definitely good for a brawl or trade, it loses some of its utility as just sustain. Also, I worry that if you kill a minion with the damage the sustain is wasted leading to an awkward situation. Maybe add the rider that if the target dies you gain the life.

Different Elements:

Kit 1 seems to be focused on the ghouls as buffs to Yorick. The good news is this means a bigger, buffer Yorick. I think this is definitely how Yorick should feel (Ghouls good, Yorick better). This is the kit I prefer because it keeps the focus on Yorick. I also think that his omen of famine works better as a point in click (see my comments on the second kit). I also think omen of pestilence is better in this form (again, I will explain in further detail when I examine the second kit's version of this ability).

Ult 1 seems very interesting. I like that yroick's ult now scales with YORICK instead of just with "insert ADC name here". I heartily approve of the "Ghouls Attack" on enemy cast ability which makes the ghouls feel like they really matter. I like the ally cast ability but I wish it was instead rolled into his current ultimate. Something like "summons a revenant which is a copy of the target but with unholy covenant bonuses (and not using abilities). Half of the damage taken by the target is redirected to the revenant. If the target dies during the duration they are revived at full health for a short time with the unholy covenant abilities". Honestly though I may be blinded by nostalgia goggles so I'm going to have to trust you to make the right decision here.

Kit 2 seems to focus on commanding the ghouls in interesting ways. While I think this is a very interesting idea for some other champion, I feel as though it diverts the focus too much from Yorick. Furthermore, it creates a dissonance between ghouls and brawling. Does Yorick want to be in melee to heal from the mark and hit with omen of war? Does he want to command from afar and harass with his ghouls? The worst offender on this level is explosive harvest. The ability has two "threat zones" one centered on your ghoul and one centered on you. If you overlap them then making them separate abilities is not pointfull, especially considering that the seconday snare is identical. If you're only going to be hitting with one zone (ghould cleave or explosive harvest) most of the time then the zone centered on yorkic seems like it would be an unnecessary risk to use when you can instead safely use just your ghoul (and you feel bad for losing out of half of the damage of the ability). This means that in either circumstance half of the ability seems superfluous. The only use for this particular form of the ability is for snaring multiple targets (such as in a teamfight), but without precise control of your ghouls I worry this will be an unachieveable dream. Secondly, I feel as though spirit strike also suffers from this dissonance. Is the point the ranged nuke or the followup attack? Again it feels as though you're either losing out on half of the ability or half of the ability is unnecessary (why have extra ghoul damage when you can just roll it into the attack buff?). Finally, making sustain dependent on a skillshot leads to all sorts of feelbad moments for yorick ESPECIALLY considering that he still has to hit his target in melee afterwards. His sustain goes from no counterplay to just never working (I know this is an exaggeration but you understand how this could be frustrating). The ability itself feels very unintuitive as a skillshot. This is the one ability of the three that feels like a cohesive pair with the ghoul ability though. The root makes it much easier to land the followup attack for the sustain.

Ult 2 is exactly the kind of ult I would like to see on yorick. It perfectly evokes the "army of the dead" trope yorick seems to embody. I think I need more information about this though. Are the ghouls like twin shadows ghosts (untargetable, can't be controlled)? Are they more like his current ghouls (targetable, take AOE damage, can't be controlled)? Are they stuck to his position (like diana's shield) or will they seek out targets (again like twin shadows)? Are they only alive for the duration of the channel? Is the channel interruptable? Are they controlled individually or en masse?
Since I don't know exactly what to expect from this ult I will give a general idea of what I think this ult should do and then analyze. I think this summons a great number of individual units (instead of a large mass of spirits which is counted as one unit) which will run towards where the controller right clicks (like a champion would) and will explode at any point along their path if they contact an enemy much like an elise explosive spider. The ghouls will last until detonated or until the channel ends. The channel will not be interruptable except by yorick's death (this is key because yorick wants to be a melee chamption and using a long interruptable channel right in front of your enemies is somewhat senseless). The ghouls will not take damage or be targetable so that they cannot just be AOE'd to make the ability pointless but also so that they can't be used to bodyblock skillshots or enemy movement.

Though I love the flavor of the ability I think it can't work in practice. Though the ability fits well into his kit because it rewards him for being in the middle of the fight (more ghouls reach their intended targets, more damage overall), it lacks counterplay because the only options for the enemy team are "take damage" and "run" for the duration of the skill. Furthermore, the ways counterplay could be introduced all lead to feelbad moments for yorick. If he can be interrupted then the ability will feel wasted when he is interrupted (how many karthus players have you seen who only ult when they die or if they can snag an easy kill in lane?) and the ability is likely to be interrupted because it is not ranged (if yorick is in the middle of the fight nothing stops the enemies from interrupting, if he's in the back how does he hit any enemies with it). If the ghouls can be killed then either A) killing them takes too much damage in which case this isn't meaningful counterplay or B) killing them is easy in which case his ult doesn't do anything meaningful (which is the problem we see with his ghouls now except that it also keeps yorick from doing anything for 5 seconds).

Sorry for the long post. I love playing yorick and I am excited to see what you do with him and I would like to do my part to help make that eventuality as good as possible.


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SSJ II Joft

Senior Member

06-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
I've thrown together two "kit" ideas based on the concepts posed earlier for discussion of the ideas behind them. Keep in mind, these are only tooltips... and tooltips are much easier to write than abilities are to build.
Which of these better fits the kind of character Yorick should be? Please explain why you like or hate it.

Kit one for sure. It maintains the basics of Yorick's current kit while offering more of a risk for spamming your ghouls. I feel that yorick's current ult is more of a necessary element though; the ability to keep your carry alive for 10 more seconds, or even the ability to have 2 carries at one time is crucial to having him on the team. I feel he needs something similar to this still, but your protection from ghouls is a step in the right direction.

oh, and does the munch passive mean that his ghouls will work with spellvamp now?


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Bob the Hobo

Senior Member

06-30-2013

I'm disappointed one of the iterations doesn't name his ghouls blinky, inky, pinky and clyde


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Yankee

Senior Member

06-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by magik8ball View Post
But did you consider that some of us like this theme to Yorick?

Shovel-smack people into the dirt with your ghoul cronies - that's the Yorick I like. Don't make him change just because that's what you like - I like his theme just the way it is.

That said, a summoner of the undead would still be pretty cool - it's just not Yorick.
First off I don't make the changes, secondly I hate what they did to Evelynn. She was the first champion I played a lot and I loved walking through the enemy team to get the one person recalling after a skirmish. Yet they changed her for stealth balancing in high elo games.
With the changes that I said for Yorick, it doesn't drastically change what he does. In fact if you're the type of person who loves shovel smacking people you'd like the Q W and E all being passives for your shovel with the Ghouls actually being an "Army of the Damned".
The reason I think Irelia's current kit should be made into an entirely different champion is because she's supposed to be a flying-blade master when her current kit is get up in your face melee. Her current kit can easily be made into another champion rather than scrapping it completely for a ranged caster.
What I've said for Yorick changes again, is keeping his overall kit Idea but incorporating his undead army.


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Lutzburg

Junior Member

06-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob the Hobo View Post
I'm disappointed one of the iterations doesn't name his ghouls blinky, inky, pinky and clyde
Haha, I was thinking the same thing. Now we just need an Arcade Yorick skin to go along with Sona's.


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Elder Sahasrahla

Junior Member

06-30-2013

To me, Yorick should not be a champion that summons a few permanent pets, because characters in any media who raise ghouls or skeletons simple send them to there destruction. Someone who summons more permanent pets (Annie or Quinn) actually has an emotional attraction to their companions. In general, characters such as Yorick do not have an emotional attachment to their pets, since they are simply minions, not companions. Also, it does not make that much sense with his theme, because why would he only have a few minions, when he has the power to summon ghouls at will? It makes more sense for him to summon different ghouls throughout the match, like the current Yorick does, instead of having a few more permanent ghouls that he continuously brings back throughout the game.

When I first played Yorick (which was actually quite recently, but I soon found I greatly enjoyed his play style), what I enjoyed is how I could summon minions without caring what happened to them. Why should I care if they die if I can just summon a new one to take its place? To me, Yorick is like the Overlord who sends his minions to do whatever he wants, and whenever the things get rough, or he is close to completing a task, he comes in to deal with it and see that it is finished. To me he is similar to Swain (my main) in that he should reduce the enemies health (for Swain with his "feeble old man form", and for Yorick with his "endless" stream of ghouls) until the enemy is weak enough to be taken advantage of and win (Swain transforms into terrifying raven, while Yorick shows that while his ghouls may not be strong, he and his shovel are a force to be reckoned with.

As of right now, my problem with Yorick is that, yes he out plays the enemy in lane, but only with his poke and sustain. When it comes to just straight out fighting, I can never win as soon as the enemy hits level 6, even when the enemy is at lower health. Yorick's ultimate doesn't help him in lane much because Yorick doesn't do straight up autoattacking damage, which is all his Revenant does is autoattack. He relies on his ghouls for damage, but his Revenant can't do that. And whenever Yorick uses his ultimate and dies, its like a chance for revenge, and you can chase down the enemy and have vengeance! but only if you can catch and defeat them within 10 seconds without taking too many turret shots. Out of lane, it is as others have stated, its only really good for using on your ad carry and you dont feel special for using it.

Thats just my concept of Yorick though.


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Xelnath

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Systems Designer

06-30-2013
17 of 123 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morjtikux View Post
This is what comes to my mind when thinking about the Necromancer in charge of the Four Omens of the Apocalypse.


Abilities

Omen of War – Yorick summons “The Spectral Ghoul” who reduces his enemy target’s armor and magic resist.

Active: Yorick's next attack will deal 30/60/90/120/150 (+1.2) physical damage and summon a Spectral Ghoul for up to 6 seconds. “The Spectral Ghoul” reduces armor and magic resist of the target it attacks by 10%.

Passive: While “The Spectral Ghoul” is living Yorick gains 8/16/24/32/40% attack speed.

Cost: 40 Mana
Range: 0


Omen of Pestilence - Yorick summons “The Decaying Ghoul” that damages nearby targets each second and slowing them.

Active: Yorick summons “The Decaying Ghoul” dealing 20/35/50/65/80 (+.3) magic damage per second for up to 6 seconds to nearby enemies. While “The Decaying Ghoul” remains alive, nearby enemies are slowed by 10/12.5/15/17.5/20%.

Passive: While “The Decaying Ghoul” is living Yorick moves 15/20/25/30/35% faster.

Cost: 55/60/65/70/75 Mana
Range: 600


Omen of Famine - Yorick summons “The Ravenous Ghoul” that heals Yorick for the damage it deals.

Active: Yorick summons “The Ravenous Ghoul” that deals 55/85/115/145/175 (+.8) magic damage and is summoned behind his target for up to 6 seconds, healing Yorick for 40% of the damage it deals. The healing effect is halved against minions.

Passive: While “The Ravenous Ghoul” is living Yorick gains 4/8/12/16/20 Life Steal.

Cost55/60/65/70/75 Mana
Range 550



Omen of Death – Yorick summons “The Revenants” in the image of his allied champions. If an ally dies while it's revenant is alive, the revenant sacrifices itself to reanimate them and give them time to enact vengeance.

Active: “The Revenants” attack each ally’s enemy target (if there is none it does nothing.) If his ally dies while their revenant is alive, the revenant sacrifices itself to reanimate them for up to 6 seconds.

Passive: While “The Revenants” are living Yorick gains 1/3/5% Damage Reduction per revenant left alive.

Cost: 100 Mana
Range: 850


Unholy Covenant – Each Ghoul summoned calls for a Shard of the Apocalypse. After 6.66(Just a Place-holder) Shards have been collected the next Ghoul summoned becomes a Rider who doubles their own effects and gains all of Yorick’s passives.





Ghouls and Revenants

Ghouls deal 15% of Yorick’s attack damage and attack his target, revenants deal 25% of his Ability Power and both have 35% of his current health.
Let's talk about Ghoul for a second.

Here's why live ghouls are utterly terrible:

1) They are attackable, but only live for a short time.
2) This means they are killable and can consume resources, but are difficult to kill
3) If you choose to kill them they gain their almost full effectiveness (autoattacking you)
4) If you choose to run away from them, you are kiting almost constantly because there's always some ghouls out.
5) When you do kill them, they don't grant gold

Here is what this remake will almost certainly NOT have:

1) I will not make short duration summons that are attackable
2) I will not make things with the ILLUSION of counterplay
3) I will not also punish players for focusing ghouls.

Based on those philosophies, I believe that temporary ghouls are a very bad idea and are endemically broken in league unless aoe damage or focused attacks one-shot them, in which case they are useless.

To look at our other summoner character, Zyra:

1) Her whole kit is about summoning
2) She still does damage even without seeds.
3) Her plants create specific areas to avoid
4) Her plans can be killed, dramatically reducing their damage output
4) You are compensated with gold for destroying them, since it probably cost you last hitting.

For this reason, I think Yorick's present ghoul summoning mechanism is very, very bad and should not be preserved. You have some cool ideas in here I like, such as every X spells, you get to summon a super ghoul who is meaningful. Ghouls who debuff the enemy are conceptually cool, but all that it means is "closing on yorick is bad". This is something which is already true, because of the existence of ghouls. (Like Elise spiders).

So I don't feel it really helps his kit.

Thanks for taking the time to share this.


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Xelnath

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Systems Designer

06-30-2013
18 of 123 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by 17alexalex View Post
Yorick is basicly a tank that summons mini teemos to poke.
This is an interesting idea. How would you guys feel if Yorick's ghouls were permanent caster minions instead of melee minions and did a larger part of his damage?