@Morello: About Fiora

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Vsin

Senior Member

06-11-2013

Well, let me at least chime in about the current state of Melee ADCs.

First, definitions:
- Master Yi
- Tryndamere
- Gangplank (technically)
- Nocturne (technically)
- Fiora

I'll be calling those 5 melee ADCs for the purpose of this thread. What do they all have in common?

- Offensive multiplicative scaling. Big AS steroids on Yi and Fiora with passive AS on Nocturne, Passive/Active AD on all of the above, Tryndamere gets passive Crit. However, AS and Crit do jack diddly without the accompanying AD, which keeps them weak early on and scales like mad later on. Mind you, that's fine.

- Nominal defensive steroids. Yes, NOMINAL. Yi gets Meditate (not-AP Yi just gets burst through it), Tryndamere gets 5s of "Exhaust Me", a nominal heal and AD reduction, Gangplank just has oranges, Nocturne has a spell shield and severely delayed CC, and Fiora has a nearly nonexistent HP Regen passive, a SINGLE attack block, and ~1.5 - 2s of untargetability. I dunno about you, but those defensive options are TERRIBLE. I'm going to head over to DotA for a second to check out what they're sporting

Juggernaut: Magic Immunity, MASSIVE HP regen, ~1 - 4s of untargetability.
Faceless Void: 25% evade, Bash, Dash/Slow, Chronosphere
Lifestealer: Magic Immunity, % Max HP Lifesteal, % Damage Dealt Lifesteal, Infest
Morphling: Dash, Stun/Knockback, High HP conversion, Illusions
Skeleton King: 2s Stun/Slow, Lifesteal aura, Reincarnation, (NEW) Life Theft
Weaver: Tactical Stealth, Time Lapse

All those guys and many more have defensive options out the wazoo, and that's all before items like BKB, Manta, Heart, etc. Some of them have high offensive steroids, like Crits (CK, SK, PA), AS boosts (Clinkz, Naix) and Damage boosts (Sven, Drow) but not all of them need that. All those guys are also known for being hard carries to varying extents.

Who do I believe the most successful "Melee Carry" design in the game right now is? Riven

Why? She has high offensive scaling, solid defensive options (Broken Wings 3rd Hit, Ki Burst, Valor), and her defense scales directly off her offense (Valor). This is also one of the reasons why someone like Kha'zix can build full squish and still survive: he has a Heal, Stealth + Damage Reduction and a Disengage that resets on kill/assist.

If you plan on helping out Melee Carries, you're going to have to directly address the problem of them having piss poor defensive options. And no, this isn't actually treading close to Bruiser territory. Bruisers are characterized by either having high bases that allow them to build full tank and still be effective, or scaling based on defensive pickups. Having defensive steroids with little to no utility or base damage will only encourage offensive-heavy builds.


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Verxint

Senior Member

06-11-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vsin View Post
Well, let me at least chime in about the current state of Melee ADCs.

First, definitions:
- Master Yi
- Tryndamere
- Gangplank (technically)
- Nocturne (technically)
- Fiora

I'll be calling those 5 melee ADCs for the purpose of this thread. What do they all have in common?

- Offensive multiplicative scaling. Big AS steroids on Yi and Fiora with passive AS on Nocturne, Passive/Active AD on all of the above, Tryndamere gets passive Crit. However, AS and Crit do jack diddly without the accompanying AD, which keeps them weak early on and scales like mad later on. Mind you, that's fine.

- Nominal defensive steroids. Yes, NOMINAL. Yi gets Meditate (not-AP Yi just gets burst through it), Tryndamere gets 5s of "Exhaust Me", a nominal heal and AD reduction, Gangplank just has oranges, Nocturne has a spell shield and severely delayed CC, and Fiora has a nearly nonexistent HP Regen passive, a SINGLE attack block, and ~1.5 - 2s of untargetability. I dunno about you, but those defensive options are TERRIBLE. I'm going to head over to DotA for a second to check out what they're sporting

Juggernaut: Magic Immunity, MASSIVE HP regen, ~1 - 4s of untargetability.
Faceless Void: 25% evade, Bash, Dash/Slow, Chronosphere
Lifestealer: Magic Immunity, % Max HP Lifesteal, % Damage Dealt Lifesteal, Infest
Morphling: Dash, Stun/Knockback, High HP conversion, Illusions
Skeleton King: 2s Stun/Slow, Lifesteal aura, Reincarnation, (NEW) Life Theft
Weaver: Tactical Stealth, Time Lapse

All those guys and many more have defensive options out the wazoo, and that's all before items like BKB, Manta, Heart, etc. Some of them have high offensive steroids, like Crits (CK, SK, PA), AS boosts (Clinkz, Naix) and Damage boosts (Sven, Drow) but not all of them need that.

Who do I believe the most successful "Melee Carry" in the game right now is? Riven

Why? She has high offensive scaling, solid defensive options (Broken Wings 3rd Hit, Ki Burst, Valor), and her defense scales directly off her offense (Valor). This is also one of the reasons why someone like Kha'zix can build full squish and still survive: he has a Heal, Stealth + Damage Reduction and a Disengage that resets on kill/assist.

If you plan on helping out Melee Carries, you're going to have to directly address the problem of them having piss poor defensive options. And no, this isn't actually treading close to Bruiser territory. Bruisers are characterized by either having high bases that allow them to build full tank and still be effective, or scaling based on defensive pickups. Having defensive steroids with little to no utility or base damage will only encourage offensive-item heavy builds.
You can actually extend the definition of melee carries to include a lot of tanky DPS - Jax is pretty much the poster child of this. He's also up with Riven as an example of how to make a brilliant Melee ADC in this game.


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chumbler

Senior Member

06-11-2013

Agreed that Riven is the only successful melee carry Riot has ever made (Jax is a bruiser who just gets way too many free stats). However the definition of melee carry should be expanded beyond "Autoattacks a lot and is melee." It should include champions who are melee and whose primary purpose is damage. This would add in, for example, Shyvana (held back by ****ty scaling), Morde (held back by nerf after nerf after nerf over the years), and Jax (I said he's just a bruiser with too many free stats and I stand by that, but he would fit my criteria for a melee carry). Potentially the upcoming Demonswordman, but let's not kid ourselves, he's a bruiser.

As long as melee carry is tied to attacking frequently (high AS) and critting a lot as though they were a ranged carry who couldn't figure out how to use a gun, they won't work. They need to deal high, reliable damage without having to rely on landing 2 autoattacks a second. Think Draven, not Tristana. Doublestrike and headshot, not quick draw or Ezreal's passive. Fiora needs to completely lose burst of speed for that reason, and Trynd needs to lose his crit dependence. Fiora also needs to be way less dependent on her ult.


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Busty Demoness

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Senior Member

06-11-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by chumbler View Post
Agreed that Riven is the only successful melee carry Riot has ever made (Jax is a bruiser who just gets way too many free stats). However the definition of melee carry should be expanded beyond "Autoattacks a lot and is melee." It should include champions who are melee and whose primary purpose is damage. This would add in, for example, Shyvana (held back by ****ty scaling), Morde (held back by nerf after nerf after nerf over the years), and Jax (I said he's just a bruiser with too many free stats and I stand by that, but he would fit my criteria for a melee carry). Potentially the upcoming Demonswordman, but let's not kid ourselves, he's a bruiser.

As long as melee carry is tied to attacking frequently (high AS) and critting a lot as though they were a ranged carry who couldn't figure out how to use a gun, they won't work. They need to deal high, reliable damage without having to rely on landing 2 autoattacks a second. Think Draven, not Tristana. Doublestrike and headshot, not quick draw or Ezreal's passive. Fiora needs to completely lose burst of speed for that reason, and Trynd needs to lose his crit dependence.
To that end, Talon, Khaz, and Zed despite being assassins would count, given your description.


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Bumhunt

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Senior Member

06-11-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Yep. It's more noise tan truth that Fiora's bad. If you're sub-plat, play Fiora and win all you'd like.

This is more about improving the character, not buffing it. There's different levels of depth to the work and design for those.
why do you keep bringing elo into discussion, seems tasteless as you aren't even capable of solo queing to plat to make fun of lower elo players

if fioras bad at high elo and you've identified this isn't that a problem. Saying fiora's fine for casuals isn't my idea of encouraging


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chumbler

Senior Member

06-11-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Busty Demoness View Post
To that end, Talon, Khaz, and Zed despite being assassins would count, given your description.
True. I should specify the damage is sustained, then. But really, if those three are capable of being a significant portion of their team's damage (Kha'Zix at least certainly is) then they should be considered melee carries.

I don't think, generally speaking, that melee carries should have strong cc, if any.


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Last Spark

Senior Member

06-11-2013

@Morello i think, that the first thing that Fiora needs, even more that changing Riposte, is some kind of cc. Even if is soft , like a slow. However, i also think that adding some cc in her kit without taking some of her damage away, is kinda a risk.


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Vsin

Senior Member

06-11-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Busty Demoness View Post
To that end, Talon, Khaz, and Zed despite being assassins would count, given your description.
Ehhh, Kha and Zed maybe, but I dispute Talon - that guy is all burst, no sustained.

Kha has resets and Q spam, Zed has E spam, but Talon goes in, bursts someone, then runs away - at best he shows up 20s later to clean up.

To that end, however, you could also include the likes of Akali and Nasus.

Akali is actually a really good melee carry in low Elo, just because the low prevalence of detection means that her shroud is an absolutely insane defensive steroid.


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Silver Raven

Senior Member

06-11-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Busty Demoness View Post
It's not that she's bad, she just has a very small niche right now due to the meta and her high skill floor.
1) Know when to engage and when not to.

2) Go Tiamat as first item for sustain and damage in lane.

3) Hope the matchup is in your favor and the enemy has no constant ranged poke.

4) Try to get kills, if not in your lane, by roaming.

Welcome to playing Fiora efficiently.

Now, if you want High Skill Floor, try Syndra/Shaco, that`s difficult...


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Pomfrey

Senior Member

06-11-2013

Letting Riposte ACTUALLY block attacks with effects like Garen's silence, Red buff and other slow, Darius's passive stack, Xin Zhao's stacking, etc, etc, etc, etc would go incredibly far into allowing Fiora some degree of counterplay/skilled usage of her abilities instead of just use it whenever you go in because it literally does not matter which attack you block at all.

Also having E not reset her animation.

Also fixing the countless bugs with R. The only ability that works the way it feels it should is Q. Every other one isn't what it shoudl be.


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