Let's talk about Xerath

First Riot Post
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lightdragoon88

Senior Member

05-31-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlashRebelJr View Post
Well the rooting mechanic, although giving a lot of power to Xerath, has another drawback than just the root : it has a cast time itself, that delays the burst, and this may be why Morello talked about delayed gratification. But removing this cast time would make long range bursting really too easy to land. As Xerath already lacks counterplay for now, no one would be able to match him on a lane.

If locus is taken to Ult, I think that would be reason enough to remove that cast time right?



Quote:
Plus the intentions from Riot when creating him are really paradoxical : they wanted a siege champion according to Xelnath, but they also wanted him to have burst. Putting both on one champion without making him OP looks fairly impossible to me.
Again that where moving Locus to ult would help.

Without locus, he is in poke mode. With Locus ult on, he is in burst mode.


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lightdragoon88

Senior Member

05-31-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stevev45 View Post
Never said you needed 15

Much improved, but you do still have Armor Pen, Health/level, and gold/10 on your "Xerath" page....
I actually spend some IP on buying Urgot when I enjoyed him during free week and ran out of IP for that rune page. *sheepish look*

But I am building up IP again to finish it.


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CoBTyrannon

Senior Member

05-31-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlashRebelJr View Post
Well the rooting mechanic, although giving a lot of power to Xerath, has another drawback than just the root : it has a cast time itself, that delays the burst, and this may be why Morello talked about delayed gratification. But removing this cast time would make long range bursting really too easy to land. As Xerath already lacks counterplay for now, no one would be able to match him on a lane.

Plus the intentions from Riot when creating him are really paradoxical : they wanted a siege champion according to Xelnath, but they also wanted him to have burst. Putting both on one champion without making him OP looks fairly impossible to me.

And thats why we donīt understand WHY you would touch a Champion thats almost impossible to balance and you got lucky hitting the sweetspot.

The cast time is necessary, because if removed my Spells get weaker.


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Crownface

Senior Member

05-31-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlashRebelJr View Post
Well the rooting mechanic, although giving a lot of power to Xerath, has another drawback than just the root : it has a cast time itself, that delays the burst, and this may be why Morello talked about delayed gratification. But removing this cast time would make long range bursting really too easy to land. As Xerath already lacks counterplay for now, no one would be able to match him on a lane.

Plus the intentions from Riot when creating him are really paradoxical : they wanted a siege champion according to Xelnath, but they also wanted him to have burst. Putting both on one champion without making him OP looks fairly impossible to me.
The root cast time is for balance reasons, and it has an advantage over a charge like the one Xelnath wants to put on Arcanopulse because you can fire it any time after the channel. It's a really short channel too, in the many, many games of Xerath I've played, I've probably missed a shot three times because of having to wait for Locus, you just learn to account for it. More skilled opponents will reposition as soon as they see the channel start, but you can usually begin to lead them during the channel and still hit an Arcanopulse, since it's nearly instant.

Morello must have misspoken if he really said that Xerath has "delayed gratification" because it doesn't make any sense. He's a burst mage, his spells come out almost instantly and do damage instantly, and it's not like you need to wait until extreme late-game for him to be useful, so saying he has any sort of delayed gratification is just objectively incorrect. Also, I don't believe Xerath was ever meant to be a true siege mage, nor is he played like one now. His kit suggests that he's just a long-range burst mage because of his innate mpen and single-target stun. They might have tried to make him a siege mage first when initially designing him and then decided it wasn't a great idea, because siege mechanics have the potential to be the most frustrating abilities to play with or against.


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lightdragoon88

Senior Member

05-31-2013

I really hope we didn't scare away the Rioteers.


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Melever

Senior Member

05-31-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crownface View Post
Morello must have misspoken if he really said that Xerath has "delayed gratification" because it doesn't make any sense. He's a burst mage, his spells come out almost instantly and do damage instantly, and it's not like you need to wait until extreme late-game for him to be useful, so saying he has any sort of delayed gratification is just objectively incorrect.
You don't understand delayed gratification.

Xerath can be dodged during activation time. It's not like Ahri where you cast the spell and it goes. Xerath is cast a spell, wait a second, profit if on target.


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Xelnath

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Systems Designer

05-31-2013
100 of 159 Riot Posts

Hey guys,

It has been a week since I last posted here. There's a lot to cover and much to say. I've been spending most of the last week working on engineering level tasks to support Xerath with RiotSamemayhem, working with Davin on analyzing the results of the Xerath survey, working with the elusive and brilliant VFX artist who is crafting new visuals to support the work we're doing on Xerath and reviewing and revising our goals for Xerath with Statikk, 20th Century Faux and Gmang.

I barely know where to start. So let's start with your feedback.

It was a hard decision whether to talk publicly about the results of a survey like this. However, I felt confident that you guys are responsible, mature and capable of being level headed with the results. We reached out to 700 players to ask for their input on Xerath and what direction they would like us to take him. This doesn't mean we intend to design by committee; we're still going to do the high levels of concept and polish that you expect from Riot Games.

Now it wasn't just 700 random players that we picked to survey. We picked 350 of the most hardcore Xerath players in all of league of legends. These are people who are hardcore Xerath fans, who play him in tons of games on a regular basis. Then we picked 350 players who have been very active with Xerath in the last month and have shown a preference for him. In a nutshell, these are 700 of the top 3000 people who play the majority of Xerath games in North America.

We wanted to include other regions in this survey, but our outreach teams have been dedicated to restoring service to Korea and EUW. We know Korean players particularly like Xerath, so we will reach out to them once we're confident we're doing the best we can for them. If you didn't get on this survey and you feel you're a hardcore Xerath player, understand it *was* a random sampling within these extremely strict qualifications.

So with that aside, what did you say? I know after reading this thread and reddit, I was a bit nervous. I thought I had a pretty good understanding of what most Xerath players would say.

So who are Xerath players?

Xerath players are mostly max level players over the age of 18.
Xerath players play league at a normal rate.
Xerath players are more likely than average to watch tournaments.
Xerath players are dramatically more likely to visit the forums, but not post, than to not visit the league forums at all.

Those factoids aside, let's get to what you care about.

The most important part of the survey was understanding what players perceive Xerath as being.

Overwhelmingly, Xerath players expressed their love for Xerath as a long-range mage sniper. You overwhelming expressed a desire to see Xerath become a powerful, long-range artillery champion. Players felt that he should be fragile, awesome and constantly unleashing arcane power.

Almost no players expressed a desire to remove the immobilization from Locus of Power. In fact, more than 46% of Xerath players described it as the one of the extremely fun things about Xerath. That said, many players did express dissatisfaction with how Locus plays out. You guys generally agreed that Xerath has a rough time killing people without his ult, but most players indicated they felt they could still get kills without it.

When asked what we should do in a Xerath rework, most Xerath players expressed both significant interest in seeing him reworked and fear that they would not be as strong with him afterwards.

Where it gets interesting is *where* players expressed interest in changes. An overwhelming majority of hardcore Xerath players would like to see Locus of Power become a more meaningful, tactical and skillful play choice. Similarly, they felt Xerath did not offer enough opportunities to exhibit skillful play. Likewise, Xerath players expressed a significant interest in spells that hit harder, on longer cooldowns over many spells which hit for less.

Furthermore, the response to Xerath's new visuals was possibly the most unanimously positive response in the survey. Thought a few players did feel his new visual was a little too "glittery".

So what did this mean?

Well, in response to this feedback we're making some changes to our plans in development for Xerath:

Because Xerath players have expressed significant interest in fewer spells, which hit harder, we've eliminated the CDR / Doublecast passive and replaced it with a new passive which grants significant amounts of % spell penetration, which scales with your maximum mana pool.

Similarly, I have removed the 2nd ammo charge from Xerath's W (Arcane Barrage) and instead dramatically increased its damage and AP ratio. I moved the power off of his base W ability and instead dramatically increased the radius and damage of his AoE explosive attacks during his ultimate.

Because of how overwhelmingly consistent the perception of Xerath was as a long-range mage, we've decided to push this factor to the extreme. Xerath now gains +600, +1000 and +2000 range to all of his spells during Locus of Power. (Numbers subject to change before launch). However, this power comes at a price - Locus of Power drains mana per second while active and has an ultimate level cooldown, but in an unusual act of buffery, Morello insisted that we make all spells cast during Locus of Power completely free. This means that your time in Locus of Power is all about deciding which attack will provide the most value to your team, not which spell will force you out of mana fastest.

Due to the overwhelmingly positive response to the new Xerath VFX, we've started the engines and all of Xerath's spells will be getting replaced with new, updated visuals. We've even toned back the "glitter" a few players commented on in the feedback and made sure to make Xerath's visuals more powerful and brutal.

As you can imagine, all of this feedback has taken a lot of time and energy to process, but we're going to do our best to deliver on the long-range, sniper artillery mage that so many hardcore players insisted we pursue. Now, naturally there were some players who were concerned about a rework, some players who loved him exactly as he is now. However, the majority of players who were concerned, expressed concerns about his power level.

Now, I won't promise everything we do will be exactly what you want. I can't do that. However, what I will promise is that I'll do everything in my power to bring together a cohesive theme that turns Xerath into a powerful contender in the league of legends.



As a special treat, here's a first pass on Xerath's new Q artwork:

Name:  XerathQFirstPassRough.jpg
Views: 160957
Size:  91.8 KB

(Yes, there's a second shockwave on the ground. Still working on it. )


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Raptearer

Recruiter

05-31-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
Hey guys,

It has been a week since I last posted here. There's a lot to cover and much to say. I've been spending most of the last week working on engineering level tasks to support Xerath with RiotSamemayhem, working with Davin on analyzing the results of the Xerath survey, working with the elusive and brilliant VFX artist who is crafting new visuals to support the work we're doing on Xerath and reviewing and revising our goals for Xerath with Statikk, 20th Century Faux and Gmang.

I barely know where to start. So let's start with your feedback.

It was a hard decision whether to talk publicly about the results of a survey like this. However, I felt confident that you guys are responsible, mature and capable of being level headed with the results. We reached out to 700 players to ask for their input on Xerath and what direction they would like us to take him. This doesn't mean we intend to design by committee; we're still going to do the high levels of concept and polish that you expect from Riot Games.

Now it wasn't just 700 random players that we picked to survey. We picked 350 of the most hardcore Xerath players in all of league of legends. These are people who are hardcore Xerath fans, who play him in tons of games on a regular basis. Then we picked 350 players who have been very active with Xerath in the last month and have shown a preference for him. In a nutshell, these are 700 of the top 3000 people who play the majority of Xerath games in North America.

We wanted to include other regions in this survey, but our outreach teams have been dedicated to restoring service to Korea and EUW. We know Korean players particularly like Xerath, so we will reach out to them once we're confident we're doing the best we can for them. If you didn't get on this survey and you feel you're a hardcore Xerath player, understand it *was* a random sampling within these extremely strict qualifications.

So with that aside, what did you say? I know after reading this thread and reddit, I was a bit nervous. I thought I had a pretty good understanding of what most Xerath players would say.

So who are Xerath players?

Xerath players are mostly max level players over the age of 18.
Xerath players play league at a normal rate.
Xerath players are more likely than average to watch tournaments.
Xerath players are dramatically more likely to visit the forums, but not post, than to not visit the league forums at all.

Those factoids aside, let's get to what you care about.

The most important part of the survey was understanding what players perceive Xerath as being.

Overwhelmingly, Xerath players expressed their love for Xerath as a long-range mage sniper. You overwhelming expressed a desire to see Xerath become a powerful, long-range artillery champion. Players felt that he should be fragile, awesome and constantly unleashing arcane power.

Almost no players expressed a desire to remove the immobilization from Locus of Power. In fact, more than 46% of Xerath players described it as the one of the extremely fun things about Xerath. That said, many players did express dissatisfaction with how Locus plays out. You guys generally agreed that Xerath has a rough time killing people without his ult, but most players indicated they felt they could still get kills without it.

When asked what we should do in a Xerath rework, most Xerath players expressed both significant interest in seeing him reworked and fear that they would not be as strong with him afterwards.

Where it gets interesting is *where* players expressed interest in changes. An overwhelming majority of hardcore Xerath players would like to see Locus of Power become a more meaningful, tactical and skillful play choice. Similarly, they felt Xerath did not offer enough opportunities to exhibit skillful play. Likewise, Xerath players expressed a significant interest in spells that hit harder, on longer cooldowns over many spells which hit for less.

Furthermore, the response to Xerath's new visuals was possibly the most unanimously positive response in the survey. Thought a few players did feel his new visual was a little too "glittery".

So what did this mean?

Well, in response to this feedback we're making some changes to our plans in development for Xerath:

Because Xerath players have expressed significant interest in fewer spells, which hit harder, we've eliminated the CDR / Doublecast passive and replaced it with a new passive which grants significant amounts of % spell penetration, which scales with your maximum mana pool.

Similarly, I have removed the 2nd ammo charge from Xerath's W (Arcane Barrage) and instead dramatically increased its damage and AP ratio. I moved the power off of his base W ability and instead dramatically increased the radius and damage of his AoE explosive attacks during his ultimate.

Because of how overwhelmingly consistent the perception of Xerath was as a long-range mage, we've decided to push this factor to the extreme. Xerath now gains +600, +1000 and +2000 range to all of his spells during Locus of Power. (Numbers subject to change before launch). However, this power comes at a price - Locus of Power drains mana per second while active and has an ultimate level cooldown, but in an unusual act of buffery, Morello insisted that we make all spells cast during Locus of Power completely free. This means that your time in Locus of Power is all about deciding which attack will provide the most value to your team, not which spell will force you out of mana fastest.

Due to the overwhelmingly positive response to the new Xerath VFX, we've started the engines and all of Xerath's spells will be getting replaced with new, updated visuals. We've even toned back the "glitter" a few players commented on in the feedback and made sure to make Xerath's visuals more powerful and brutal.

As you can imagine, all of this feedback has taken a lot of time and energy to process, but we're going to do our best to deliver on the long-range, sniper artillery mage that so many hardcore players insisted we pursue. Now, naturally there were some players who were concerned about a rework, some players who loved him exactly as he is now. However, the majority of players who were concerned, expressed concerns about his power level.

Now, I won't promise everything we do will be exactly what you want. I can't do that. However, what I will promise is that I'll do everything in my power to bring together a cohesive theme that turns Xerath into a powerful contender in the league of legends.

</wall of text>

As a special treat, here's a first pass on Xerath's new Q artwork:

Attachment 696270

(Yes, there's a second shockwave on the ground. Still working on it. )
Loving it! Kinda bummed I couldn't take part in the survey, but thats what I get for taking two months off to play support XD. I'm so happy though with the turnout for this poll though, and I'm super happy my favorite champ is getting the attention he deserves .

You da man Xelnath, you da man!


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imweasel09

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

05-31-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
Words
Initial thoughts: A. holy **** that picture. B. massive spell pen both intrigues and frightens me. One of the big things Morello and Zileas like to bring up about league being different than dota is eliminating burden of knowledge, we also know Morello hates free stats (see: everything about old jax, vlad). Xerath already has a pretty scary amount of free spell pen, giving him even more might push magic resistance towards being a waste of gold compared to just raw health stacking.

I'm completely ok with this, but I'm concerned that he's at risk of being nerfed due to being pure magic damage character that could potentially make buying magic resistance a bad choice which would be unintuitive to new players and thus something with a high burden of knowledge. Burst mages tend to inherently be very pubstompy because they can very easily blow up a single target and we just saw akali nerfs that statikk admitted weren't aimed at competitive play. I like where you're going Xelnath but I'm scared of what might happen the first time Xerath shows up competitively and there's crying everywhere.


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CynicalGiant

Senior Member

05-31-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post

As a special treat, here's a first pass on Xerath's new Q artwork:

Attachment 696270

(Yes, there's a second shockwave on the ground. Still working on it. )
Looks way too much like fire. I like where its going though, would love to see it look more electric-y.

Oh and whats with all these blue arcane champs having mana scaling? Ryze then Taric then Xerath.