[Quinn] Vault Needs Work, so does Valor Form

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Eyrgos

Senior Member

05-20-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by pippin254 View Post
Honestly, I think I would rather see the untargetable frames after Quinn leaps off her target. However, the untargetable should kick in right as she makes contact, so that things like Singed's Fling and Volibears' toss don't throw her. That way peopel have a means of pushing her back when initiating (similar to how a well timed Thresh Flay can stop a flying Lee Sin), while giving her safety on the retreat (which, if used defensively, should be how Vault should work.)

Thoughts on this?
I like it... moment of contact & just as she's making the flip-back.

Only reason I said "slightly before" is so that things like Singed's Fling don't bug & get through when they shouldn't (as I'm sure a few things still would appear like they shouldn't but may & cause unnecessary upset/frustration in the player).

I approve!

EDIT: OP updated to reflect this change; funny actually, that line was an old cut & it was actually intended to be like you described. Oops! Good idea


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TripyGuy5

Junior Member

05-20-2013

Another point is that her blind lasts for about half a second, making it just pointless because the enemy will miss 1 basic attack early game and when you need kills early for gold, the blind wont help, I dont want it to last like teemos, but make it long enough to have a effect worth engaging on.


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The McSmashy

Senior Member

05-20-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by TripyGuy5 View Post
Another point is that her blind lasts for about half a second, making it just pointless because the enemy will miss 1 basic attack early game and when you need kills early for gold, the blind wont help, I dont want it to last like teemos, but make it long enough to have a effect worth engaging on.
Her blind lasts for exactly as long as Teemos at rank 1, which is triple what you say it is.


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BirriaBoy03

Senior Member

05-20-2013

lol valor actually very good where it is, but instead of glass cannon quinn, just tank her a little just for survivability (as for me, i build bruiser quinn to have full use of valor )
EDIT: pick items like frozen mallet and black cleaver.


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Pippin254

Senior Member

05-20-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eyrgos View Post
I like it... moment of contact & just as she's making the flip-back.

Only reason I said "slightly before" is so that things like Singed's Fling don't bug & get through when they shouldn't (as I'm sure a few things still would appear like they shouldn't but may & cause unnecessary upset/frustration in the player).

I approve!
Flipping sweet. Okay, gonna go through the rest now.

1) Give Vault untargettable frames just as it's making contact & right at the start of the flip-back

Discussed above.


2) Have Vault predictably position your landing based upon relation to target at initial cast.

I don't think this is too big of an issue if the untargetable frames are introduced. Right now all the inconsistencies I'm noticing with Vaults landing are when another displacement is cast on Quinn. Can you give an example of this one?

3) Move Harrier-Proc from E to Q (altering numbers appropriately, perhaps a slight more damage moved to E from Q to qualify this change; would allow one to safely "tap" an enemy champion for added burst, allowing her to dps properly in a team-fight context, albeit with minor reduction in reliability~ *no longer click-target*)

Not going to lie, I don't like this one. It could just be me really liking the flow of her AA-E-AA-Q combo, but shifting it into her skillshot just doesn't seem right. Valor's already blinding them, adding on a mark seems to be too much, while, conversely, Vault will be doing too little. Right now I think the harrier marks sit in a good spot. If you can trigger one, then vault and trigger another, it's an equal mix of risk and solid damage.

4) Grant Valor Form the same E-Interrupt as Quinn's E

I thought it already did. O_o if it doesn't, fully agree on this one.

5) Grant Valor Form "Ghost Effect" (no unit collision)

This I know Valor already does. Says in the skill description that Valor can move through units. Unless I'm missing somethign here.

6) Grant Valor Form W a "Grants lingering vision of enemy champions revealed for 3 seconds. May reveal stealthed units." (Like Clairvoyance, fits character/lore-wise, provides a cool niche, & fits with the rest of the Quinn-Valor kit transformation)

This would be amazing. Valor is a flippin' bird, he should be able to sniff out a stealted twitch and give him a talon acupuncture class. Would be a great counter to stealth champions without having to spend 400 gold.

7) Grant Valor Form passive "Reduced Slowing Effects by 30%" (for its duration).

Would be interesting...I don't mind this change. Hard CC will still screw Q&V over, so I can see Valor being able to negate some soft CC because he's flying through the air like a boss.


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Eyrgos

Senior Member

05-20-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by TripyGuy5 View Post
Another point is that her blind lasts for about half a second, making it just pointless because the enemy will miss 1 basic attack early game and when you need kills early for gold, the blind wont help, I dont want it to last like teemos, but make it long enough to have a effect worth engaging on.
It lasts for 1.5 seconds, but yeah--it does feel like it goes by rather quickly or that it can be inconsequential... especially considering the majority of the RADC's have something to cast (or two) during blind which can totally negate it's usefulness... e.g. Quinn blinds, Ms. Fortune responds with E>Q>R.

Maybe it would be good to have it increase to 2 seconds by level 4, even if that meant it went from 1.25/1.5/1.75/2.00.


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TripyGuy5

Junior Member

05-20-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by The McSmashy View Post
Her blind lasts for exactly as long as Teemos at rank 1, which is triple what you say it is.
I mean teemo can constantly have it up when quinn can use it once every few seconds.


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Stupid Hat

Senior Member

05-20-2013

Quinn is really strong, she would get brutally nerfed if she were to get something like this. just wait shes gona end up in pro LoL big time


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Eyrgos

Senior Member

05-20-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by BirriaBoy03 View Post
lol valor actually very good where it is, but instead of glass cannon quinn, just tank her a little just for survivability (as for me, i build bruiser quinn to have full use of valor )
EDIT: pick items like frozen mallet and black cleaver.
I think the same, but her having to compensate by making herself into a bruiser is exactly what's gimping her DPS & minimizing her usefulness (or making her 'uncompetitive', in a sense)

Valor form is good, however I feel it needs very minor usefulness in a team-fight context (because IMO this' where Quinn suffers or is primarily lacking)...

I build bruiser Quinn to grant myself some added personal peel & chase, but it does significantly hinder her ability to DPS, especially when her range is already so short.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pippin254 View Post
Flipping sweet. Okay, gonna go through the rest now.

2) Have Vault predictably position your landing based upon relation to target at initial cast.

I don't think this is too big of an issue if the untargetable frames are introduced. Right now all the inconsistencies I'm noticing with Vaults landing are when another displacement is cast on Quinn. Can you give an example of this one?

3) Move Harrier-Proc from E to Q (altering numbers appropriately, perhaps a slight more damage moved to E from Q to qualify this change; would allow one to safely "tap" an enemy champion for added burst, allowing her to dps properly in a team-fight context, albeit with minor reduction in reliability~ *no longer click-target*)

Not going to lie, I don't like this one. It could just be me really liking the flow of her AA-E-AA-Q combo, but shifting it into her skillshot just doesn't seem right. Valor's already blinding them, adding on a mark seems to be too much, while, conversely, Vault will be doing too little. Right now I think the harrier marks sit in a good spot. If you can trigger one, then vault and trigger another, it's an equal mix of risk and solid damage.
#2: things like Vayne's Tumble or Tristana's Rocket Jump frequently cause Quinn to Vault off in strange directions, often resulting in unintentional suicide...

What's wrong with Vault's current design is the direction you leap back toward partially depends on enemy-pivoting (especially when combined with some sort of momentum).


#3: since you brought this up, I actually agree with you now! I'm much more all for the Vault-tweaks which would solve the "felt need" to make this change... if Vault were even the slightest bit safer or less punishing/abusable, then that would take care of things in this department.

#4 & #5: removed from the list, failed to realize these two


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Flux Aureo

Senior Member

05-20-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eyrgos View Post


As currently, her damage is balanced around double-tapping harrier strikes using vault & since Quinn has to refrain from Vaulting so often, her net match-dps is about 30% below any other ADC's in my experience
Where do you get this from? I mean, I haven't run the math, but to affirm that Quinn DPS is 30% below any other ADC...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eyrgos View Post
So here are a few potential ideas to make that happen, please say yay or no to individual items & explain why to any:

Okay, as a Quinn player, I'll give you my opinion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eyrgos View Post
1) Give Vault untargettable frames just as it's making contact & right at the start of the flip-back
Yes please. I suicided a lot because Thresh hooked me while Vaulting their ADC. =(

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eyrgos View Post
2) Have Vault predictably position your landing based upon relation to target at initial cast.
IT IS predictable, the closest you are to your target, the faraway you will leapback and viceversa. Thing is, it wouldnt do harm if you could get a visual indicator, maybe like Draven's, to know your landing spot.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Eyrgos View Post
6) Grant Valor Form W a "Grants lingering vision of enemy champions revealed for 3 seconds. May reveal stealthed units." (Like Clairvoyance, fits character/lore-wise, provides a cool niche, & fits with the rest of the Quinn-Valor kit transformation)
Okay, but not really necessary. I would like to see some flavor added to Valor W, since you "lose" the passive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eyrgos View Post
7) Grant Valor Form passive "Reduced Slowing Effects by 30%" (for its duration).
Quinn is already a good cleaner/catcher, and would further enhance her mobility. Im not sure if she needs more mobility, or fixing her weak sides.



I dont consider Quinn to be a bad champion, to be honest. You need to understand that her Ultimate isn't like Vayne, but it is meant to catch up lone guys and duel them, to clean in teamfights after you have the advantage and to burst somebody down with E,Q,R.


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