The cycle of starting items nerfs

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AlexanderNVV

Member

04-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by CertainlyT View Post
While I agree that we have done significant re-balancing to starting items, I don't think it has been nearly the nerf-fest you believe. Rather, our Live team is continuing to try and create space for diverse starting purchases appropriate to your champion and expected opponent. Are they completely happy with starting items? I think the answer to that is "not yet" -- this isn't an issue on which perfection is easily reached, but things are better now than they've ever been.

Off the top of my head, here are some of their decisions that run counter to the theory that they focus on nerfing starting items.

DBlade is a better starting item now than it was last season (the passive change to flat regen is superior until you deal >100 damage post-mitigation).

Boots were not nerfed per se, we merely gave champions half of their benefit innately, opening more starts -- S2 was characterized by 8 or more champions all starting boots.

Long Sword was buffed in S3 (from 415 to 400... builds into Vamp Scepter).

Flask is still a viable starting item in a lot of lanes that didn't exist in S2 (I am watching the Korean pro team LG-IM #2 run it on Diana right now. The release version was plainly overtuned.

Faerie Charm and Rejuv Bead were added to a number of recipes for S3 (and Bead made cheaper), making them more attractive starting items.

Seeker's Armguard was added, making Cloth + 5 Pot a stronger start for APs against physical damage dealers.
I agree about flask, it is a pretty good addition for certain champions like Singed, Diana, Talon and other champions which equally deplete their HP and MP bar in the start of the game and could use a permanent source of extra sustain throughout the game.

While bead and charm became viable start options they actually encourage passive gameplay just like the 9 pots start since you can start with a huge amount of pots and/or wards along with bead or charm which already give some sustain.

Doran's blade was buffed compared to its S2 state, but if Doran's blade and ring were to return to their early S1 state there would be no such problem with passive early laning because those items were far superior compared to the start with consumables.


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ZzRadio

Senior Member

04-30-2013

Let's nerf a meta! Because we don't want to force a meta!


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havikryan

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Senior Member

04-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by CertainlyT View Post
While I agree that we have done significant re-balancing to starting items, I don't think it has been nearly the nerf-fest you believe. Rather, our Live team is continuing to try and create space for diverse starting purchases appropriate to your champion and expected opponent. Are they completely happy with starting items? I think the answer to that is "not yet" -- this isn't an issue on which perfection is easily reached, but things are better now than they've ever been.

Off the top of my head, here are some of their decisions that run counter to the theory that they focus on nerfing starting items.

DBlade is a better starting item now than it was last season (the passive change to flat regen is superior until you deal >100 damage post-mitigation).

Boots were not nerfed per se, we merely gave champions half of their benefit innately, opening more starts -- S2 was characterized by 8 or more champions all starting boots.

Long Sword was buffed in S3 (from 415 to 400... builds into Vamp Scepter).

Flask is still a viable starting item in a lot of lanes that didn't exist in S2 (I am watching the Korean pro team LG-IM #2 run it on Diana right now. The release version was plainly overtuned.

Faerie Charm and Rejuv Bead were added to a number of recipes for S3 (and Bead made cheaper), making them more attractive starting items.

Seeker's Armguard was added, making Cloth + 5 Pot a stronger start for APs against physical damage dealers.
the old dorans blade was actually better sustain, for me atleast as i run life steal quints.


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Gefgarion

Member

04-30-2013

Doran's Blade "buff" actually turned into a nerf because the 5hp per attack doesn't scale past early game.
Flask is only worth it if you hold onto it for 9+ uses now. (And how many champions realistically use it that long)
Boots got nerfed with the movespeed increase.
Red elixir made some champs actually have a decent start (with some risk involved with making it your starting item if you could make an opponent burn theirs for no kill reward).

It feels very random how Riot has been buffing some champs early game because they were deemed "too hard", and nerfing others because they were "lane bullies" yet not adjusting late game scaling in an appropriate fashion to make up for it. Its like they think they know what direction they want the game to go, without actually knowing how to get there. Why not level the field and give every champion an easy start with mediocre scaling and solve the whole problem, because it feels like that is what you really want to happen.


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CertainlyT

Champion Designer

04-30-2013
3 of 3 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dremiist View Post
doran is not a better starting item, it's worst i could have jungle lee sin shyvana with doran blade as a starting item , you nerfed lifesteal and mastery. sigh

IT GIVES LESS SUBSTAIN!
Doran's Blade went from 3% life steal to 5 life on hit. It takes your attacks dealing 166 damage per hit post-mitigation to cause it to give less sustain now than it did last season. I think the more accurate statement might be that Doran's is a worse late game item now than it was at the end of last season.


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Felaedor

Senior Member

04-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by CertainlyT View Post
Doran's Blade went from 3% life steal to 5 life on hit. It takes your attacks dealing 166 damage per hit post-mitigation to cause it to give less sustain now than it did last season. I think the more accurate statement might be that Doran's is a worse late game item now than it was at the end of last season.
And because LoL has very little differentiation between early/late game items, what does that mean?

I.e. no base component costs more than 1600 gold, and the 1600 gold base components are more cost efficient than the ones with half their stats.


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havikryan

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Senior Member

04-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by CertainlyT View Post
Doran's Blade went from 3% life steal to 5 life on hit. It takes your attacks dealing 166 damage per hit post-mitigation to cause it to give less sustain now than it did last season. I think the more accurate statement might be that Doran's is a worse late game item now than it was at the end of last season.
but i value 9% lifesteal(with runes) much higher then 5 health a hit.

60 damage / 100 * 9 = 5.4 health per hit with lifesteal, with armor pen runes i would be dealing true damage vs minions so for me the previous dorans blade was more efficient at sustaining me, in fact i no longer buy a dorans blade first because of the loss of lifesteal.


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Mirage Night

Senior Member

04-30-2013

Look there are champions inherently bad very early, such as morde, who without pots to sustain him through until he can obtain hextech revolver, just suck. IF ANYTHING, you are forcing him to play very passively.


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Voidgolem

Senior Member

04-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by havikryan View Post
but i value 9% lifesteal(with runes) much higher then 5 health a hit.

60 damage / 100 * 9 = 5.4 health per hit with lifesteal, with armor pen runes i would be dealing true damage vs minions so for me the previous dorans blade was more efficient at sustaining me, in fact i no longer buy a dorans blade first because of the loss of lifesteal.
...so now you get 6% lifesteal + 5 hp/hit. Pretty sure that's a net gain.


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Wasabi Kitty

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Senior Member

04-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Felaedor View Post
And because LoL has very little differentiation between early/late game items, what does that mean?

I.e. no base component costs more than 1600 gold, and the 1600 gold base components are more cost efficient than the ones with half their stats.

Very little differentiation between early and late game items? Are you high?


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