The cycle of starting items nerfs

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CertainlyT

Champion Designer

04-30-2013
2 of 3 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Voidgolem View Post
More! More build paths for longsword and cloth armor! Like eight is not enough!

...

and I guess mantle too. Just so it doesn't feel neglected.
I've spoken to Xypherous about this in the past. I believe his answer went something like this:

One issue with making Mantle more attractive as a starting item (we see it on rare occasion as a start currently on heavy sustain champions or those going down the Utility tree for the early sustain offered by biscuit and starting gold) is that starting MR is substantially higher than starting Armor already. Many of our AP casters in particular rely on the threat of lethal damage to offer themselves safety in lane. Remove that, and their entire early game has to be adjusted upward, such that Null Magic is pretty much vital to fight them, plus the added damage cascades into the mid game unless we make their spell rank ups less powerful.


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Murdus

Senior Member

04-30-2013

R.I.P. Vampiric Scepter starts.

Apart from that, I'm happy with the nerfing of every starting item out there. No, seriously. I like having a choice. As long as one starter strat is overpowered, you pretty much have no choice but to build that, or fall behind. I'm glad that you guys are systematically getting rid of each, and every one of these errors in the system.


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lol I died again

Member

04-30-2013

Good.
I was getting tired of potions and elixirs everywhere.

Time to deal with flasks everywhere.


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Alucad

Senior Member

04-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Atheology View Post
I think the intent is to not see every single lane matchup start identically. I think they want to see Dorans, Elixir, and Sustain starts all be viable with tradeoffs rather than have one thing dominate the entire competitive league across the board. They're just not the best at getting there yet.

Regarding red-pot starts, I think it officially became something worth nerfing when pro teams were going 3+ fort elixirs across a team at level 1. Consistently.
well was there any differecce with the boots +3 pots start? not really.

the elixir needed a nerf but that big.


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Redeemed In Fire

Senior Member

04-30-2013

I guess the problem I have with flask is that it *feels* sucky to start unless you go allin flask pots (which leaves you with no wards). 345 gold on an item that won't return till midgame? Might not be that bad on paper but damn if it doesn't feel bad in game.


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CaldwellYSR

Senior Member

04-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by SinnerMagnius View Post
I think my main problem with the starting item nerf is 1v2 lanes, they're already boring to watch, predictable and hard to deal with as a player. Pots made them a bit more manageable, with the nerf of these starting items it's going to be reinforcing 2v1 lanes as a dominant strategy and I'm really not sure if that's a good thing.
Personally I feel like this just means people will be calling the 2v1 swap and playing alot more 2v2's than they did this season. Being the 1man in a 2v1 is now going to be alot more difficult with only 5 pots.


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Reskk

Senior Member

04-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sexy Yutaka View Post
Most of the items you mentioned were nerfed because by buying them, you completely remove counterplay. I play a decent amount of top and mid, and whenever I see the enemy starting 9 pots, I know I'm just not going to be able to kill them, and it's going to be a tough lane. It's silly that by buying a certain set of initial items, you make it nearly impossible to trade with you. That should never be the case, and I'm glad to see that Riot has removed it.
Last I checked, hp pots aren't a full heal and you can still burst down opposing champions. Completely removing counter play is a lie.


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Baxtasan

Senior Member

04-30-2013

I like the 5 pots max. It means the no mana champs actually have to use some skill instead of running face first into opposing champ, farming all the creeps while getting to half life then popping one of 9 pots and doing it for the entire laning phase.


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CaldwellYSR

Senior Member

04-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by CertainlyT View Post
I've spoken to Xypherous about this in the past. I believe his answer went something like this:

One issue with making Mantle more attractive as a starting item (we see it on rare occasion as a start currently on heavy sustain champions or those going down the Utility tree for the early sustain offered by biscuit and starting gold) is that starting MR is substantially higher than starting Armor already. Many of our AP casters in particular rely on the threat of lethal damage to offer themselves safety in lane. Remove that, and their entire early game has to be adjusted upward, such that Null Magic is pretty much vital to fight them, plus the added damage cascades into the mid game unless we make their spell rank ups less powerful.
It's frustrating how hard it is to buy MR, especially top lane against someone like Elise, Rumble, or Singed especially when they get to start cloth+5 and build that into an AP item and the AD side doesn't get that same benefit. The AD side gets to start mantle+2 or mantle+ward to build into hexdrinker... I think Mantle should cost the same as cloth.


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Dremiist

Senior Member

04-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by CertainlyT View Post
While I agree that we have done significant re-balancing to starting items, I don't think it has been nearly the nerf-fest you believe. Rather, our Live team is continuing to try and create space for diverse starting purchases appropriate to your champion and expected opponent. Are they completely happy with starting items? I think the answer to that is "not yet" -- this isn't an issue on which perfection is easily reached, but things are better now than they've ever been.

Off the top of my head, here are some of their decisions that run counter to the theory that they focus on nerfing starting items.

DBlade is a better starting item now than it was last season (the passive change to flat regen is superior until you deal >100 damage post-mitigation).

Boots were not nerfed per se, we merely gave champions half of their benefit innately, opening more starts -- S2 was characterized by 8 or more champions all starting boots.

Long Sword was buffed in S3 (from 415 to 400... builds into Vamp Scepter).

Flask is still a viable starting item in a lot of lanes that didn't exist in S2 (I am watching the Korean pro team LG-IM #2 run it on Diana right now. The release version was plainly overtuned.

Faerie Charm and Rejuv Bead were added to a number of recipes for S3 (and Bead made cheaper), making them more attractive starting items.

Seeker's Armguard was added, making Cloth + 5 Pot a stronger start for APs against physical damage dealers.
doran is not a better starting item, it's worst in term of substain, the old doran blade gave you 3% lifesteal, with 167 ad you get 5hp gain on hit, the old mastery gave lifesteal and if you added doran blade + lifesteal quints and mastery you could have start with a doran blade as shyvana.i do like the new doran blade but at the same time i don't it feels too different and the old doran blade was better mid game. lifesteal+crits and 200 attack damage on carry, stacking 3 doran would have give me 12% lifesteal and around 25 hp on it.

the potion, there was nothing wrong having i bigger cup of juice,everyone could run potion it was fine.

Faerie Charm and Rejuv Bead and hearth of gold removed + gp 10 stats nerfed.

Seeker's Armguard or chain vest? chain vest all day

etc


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