an idea for shyvana

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Prince Kassad

Senior Member

04-19-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Griftrix View Post
I wouldn't worry about other Rioters seeing this. We look for red posts the same way non Rioters do .

In regards to the AP ratio on the E. (KEEPING IN MIND THIS IS A GUESS AND I AM NOT A DESIGNER) There are 3 options for the ratio on her E. Option 1 is no ratio at all. This seems like it could be just disappointing to players, but I really don't know if it's an OK thing to do or not. Option 2, put an AD ratio on it. This would make her kit much stronger, and would be a buff. If the champion is already balanced, this means that something else about the champion would have to be nerfed to keep her balanced. Option 3 is put an AP ratio on it, so that if you want to focus on that, you are sacrificing other aspects of the kit.

Also of note, sheen is good on her, and it has some AP on it, so giving her some AP ratios is a nice thing for a very controlled amount of expected AP.

My overall guess is it has something to do with meaningful choices. Maybe you want to rush sheen, in which case you may also want to max E first. I really have no idea though, and please don't go quoting this as Shyvana design gospel.

TLDR: (shrug)
An AP ratio on Burnout would make hybrid and spell vamp builds a fun alternative for her. Wasn't Guinsoo's Rageblade even a recommended item in her champion spotlight? Phreak had the right idea, in that she seems like she should be hybrid champion, but unfortunately her scaling just doesn't support it. An AP ratio on her W makes too much sense not to be there.


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Wightraven

Senior Member

04-19-2013

There's also the element of surprise in draft and ranked. If someone sees me pick Ziggs, they plan on countering Ziggs mid. When they see I'm the AD carry... they don't know what to do, and their counter has been wasted. Hell, maybe WE got to counter THEM by baiting them to pick a mid early. Same for GP support, Urgot jungle, Gragas jungle, any AD in mid, and plenty of other alternate build plans.

EDIT: I've won so many games on bot lane AP Soraka/AP + Attack Speed Sona just because the enemy team has no clue how to react it isn't funny.

Wait, yes it is.


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Friendly Cadaver

Senior Member

04-19-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Griftrix View Post
This also makes sense to me as a reason. Thank you for explaining . I get some of that feeling when I play jungle Galio, which is totally a thing. I also like that because end game we have a totally new option for team composition that has more CC than normal for control.
TL;DR at bottom but I think it's all worth reading

It's also another way to throw off the enemy. If you see Lee Sin, you think AD Bruiser, but with a little bit of AP, some Mpen and Wit's End/Sunfire Cape (like what was already stated), you can really catch someone off guard. "holy guacamole! Dat Shield!" "Why am I taking so much magic damage from Lee Sin? Ohhhh... and I built more armor... sneaky blind monk." Etc. Same with Shyvana. Her W already deals magic damage, why not give it an AP ratio anyways? Secondly, who wouldn't want a firebreathing dragon's strongest attacks to be the fire it breathes? A torrent of fire around it as it walks, while spitting conic flames, SO COOOL. Next thing is that Shyvana could still benefit from things like malady or nashor's tooth because of what her E and Passive does:

Fury of the Dragon Born on E: Each autoattack that hits debuffed targets will deal 15% of the ability's damage as additional magic damage.

15% of the max damage her Flame Breath can deal, which is: 80 / 125 / 170 / 215 / 260 (+ 60% AP). With like 300 AP and E at max level, Flame Breath deals 440 magic damage to each target it hits. Plus applies the debuff which causes ALL auto attacks against that target to deal an additional 66 magic damage. That may seem like very little but if the adc and all other teammates (including yourself) use a basic attack, that really adds up. The debuff lasts for 4 seconds. If we flatline all AS on your team to being 1 attack per second. Then that's 4 attacks per person. With the entire team that's 20 hits. Now take into account spells like Shyvana's Q that reset attack timers, you could add 1 more within 0.5 seconds. So to keep a low amount let's assume Shyv is the only one with a spell like that. that's 21 AA's which means a total of 1386 bonus magic damage on that target (NOT including auto attack damages, buffs, spell damages, etc). The fact that in dragon form, your spells will apply this to everyone means you plus Kayle plus anyone with Runaan's Hurricane/Ravenous Hydra will do this across multiple people (assuming they are close enough together of course).

TL;DR Essentially, adding a new element to a champ, such as adding an AP ratio somewhere, opens the doors for new styles of play, new team comps, new roles, and weird but creative ways of thinking and playing.

PS: I know you aren't a designer Griftrix so I understand. But thank you for engaging with the playerbase. You always seem to want to learn everything and that's a great quality in any worker.


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Griftrix

Senior Animation Engineer

04-19-2013
7 of 12 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prince Kassad View Post
An AP ratio on her W makes too much sense not to be there.
I just want to pick on this one part. If you mean kit and playstyle sense, then cool. If you mean logic sense, then why can't flying characters ignore trees and walls?


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olridey

Senior Member

04-19-2013

okay this is my last post ill make since i said i was gonna go to sleep but lied because its 6am in the morning in australia

it seems like this riot guy is avoiding the topic of ap shyvana by replying to comments kn a thread i made about shyvana when these comments are about other champs idk its a conspiracy or something whats his motivation to hate ap shyvana?

that didbt make sense sorry

but come on give her w an ap ratio and ill never post on the forums ever again


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olridey

Senior Member

04-19-2013

im gonna write a compellig argument then ill be back


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Jasado

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Senior Member

04-19-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Griftrix View Post
I just want to pick on this one part. If you mean kit and playstyle sense, then cool. If you mean logic sense, then why can't flying characters ignore trees and wall?
Her W does magic damage but scales purely off of AD.

I do hybrid shyvana with spellpen boots, along with sometimes sunfire and abyssal. Her dragon flight, W burnout, and her E are all magic damage. If you do the math, leveling her Q first is terrible in terms of dps. I always go W/E/Q, and the magic pen is VERY sizeable damage increase early/mid game.

So, it makes sense for burnout to have a small AP ratio. Everything else already does, minus her Q. She really is at the brink of hybrid.


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BooleanCube

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Senior Member

04-19-2013

@Griftrix: Regarding Assassin Mundo... keep in mind his E is one of, if not the, biggest AD steroids in the game (40/55/70/85/100) + (.4/.55/.7/.85/1 per %missing health); if you put a Sword of the Divine on that, it doesn't really matter what the rest of your kit does :P Like speed him up and slow them down just long enough to get 3 max-speed AA's off with the most ridiculous crits you've ever seen.

Also, 'Johnny' is the 'Power Gamer' who loves big plays, he like playing MTG's 10/10 monsters with Trample, while 'Timmy' is the one who makes wierd combos with all sorts of goofy cards.
In addition, it never hurts to put flexibility where balance isn't sacrificed; in addition AGAIN to the simple fact that AP was designed to enhance abilities as is advertised.


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mi ramfan

Senior Member

04-19-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Griftrix View Post
I am intrigued by people who want to play non AP champions as AP. I don't understand the attraction. If you are someone who thinks this way, can you explain why you think some champions should be able to be played AP or AD, and why this increases your fun? To me it's sort of like saying that you want to build Mundo as an assassin, but there's no mechanics or items available to make it possible, and I don't understand the want.

Thanks!
We want the AP ratio on W because as of right now W scales with AD which creates a false choice; you want to build AD because of that and her Q, yet building AD only scales half her kit. At the same time, building full AP scales only half her kit as well. We want either Dragon's Descent's activation to scale with AD, or we want her Burnout to scale with AP to open up a tanky AP build for her.

Allowing Shyvana to build tanky AP would open up Liandries, Rylai's, Abyssal Scepter, and other AP utility items that would REALLY HELP HER if she could scale reasonably well with them. She'd be a tanky AP jungler with a fast clear time; a unique niche that would give her a place in the metagame where she doesn't have one right now.


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olridey

Senior Member

04-19-2013

im not even happy that riot responded to my post