an idea for shyvana

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Suspitio

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Senior Member

04-19-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Griftrix View Post
I am intrigued by people who want to play non AP champions as AP. I don't understand the attraction. If you are someone who thinks this way, can you explain why you think some champions should be able to be played AP or AD, and why this increases your fun? To me it's sort of like saying that you want to build Mundo as an assassin, but there's no mechanics or items available to make it possible, and I don't understand the want.

Thanks!
Very simple:
Shyvana - Dragon breed;
Dragons - Magical;
Ability power - Boosts magical attacks.
See where's I'm going

2nd reason: AD usually boosts something physical, whereas her W is a magical whirling blaze of flames coming out of her. A sword sure is going to help them burn stronger!


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Griftrix

Senior Animation Engineer

04-19-2013
2 of 12 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vacus View Post
AP Yi vs AD Yi.


They're basically two different champions with entirely different play patterns, power routines, and so on. The ability to play non-AP champions as AP basically creates an entirely new champion in the League, a new champion who is too similar to an existing champion to ever actually be created.

In other words, if you want to get the aesthetics of Master Yi with the play pattern of AP Yi, AP Yi is the only way it will ever happen. The same would be true of AP Shyvana; there will never be a half-dragon melee mage, with an autoattacks-buff-abilities passive, whose abilities get empowered during a transformation ultimate, because that would be way too similar to Shyvana. If someone wants to play that champion, AP Shyvana would be their only option. The only real difference is 'mage' vs 'bruiser', which have different damage curves (the graph of damage dealt over time), different power curves (overall strength vs game time), and so on.


(Note that I don't actually want to play AP Shyvana. I'd just like her to get fixed for real. But I understand the desire.)
This is a pretty good explanation to me, but does AP Shyvana have a different play pattern? I understand the difference in Master Yi, thank you for pointing it out for me. If Shyvanna had AP ratios, what would her play pattern be?

Oh, and the "fire should have AP ratios cause it makes sense" seems less important than the things about play patterns.


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ArlanKels

Senior Member

04-19-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Griftrix View Post
I am intrigued by people who want to play non AP champions as AP. I don't understand the attraction. If you are someone who thinks this way, can you explain why you think some champions should be able to be played AP or AD, and why this increases your fun? To me it's sort of like saying that you want to build Mundo as an assassin, but there's no mechanics or items available to make it possible, and I don't understand the want.

Thanks!
It has to do with attempting to play a champion in such a way that it's unique, it draws more attention. You stand out more, whether you realize this is what you want or not.
There is another possibility in that it creates a break from the monotony.

I have played this game for a long time, I have something like 1650 wins/1680 losses in Summoners Rift. I have 463 Wins and about 460 losses in Dominion. I have multiple games of Twisted Treeline. I have a bunch of AI and custom(ARAM) games.

I own every champion. I have played every champion.

Dear God it gets boring sometimes...
and then blam, here comes AP Garen. Aww yeah.


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Always MIA

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04-19-2013

Griftix,
the desire comes from wanting to expand past the norm and see was works.

We see different champion mechanics and want test them out to see their limits and viability.

My personal favorite is Magic Pen Lee Sin with items like Wit's End and Sunfire Cape.


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Rumplefugly

Member

04-19-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Griftrix View Post
I am intrigued by people who want to play non AP champions as AP. I don't understand the attraction. If you are someone who thinks this way, can you explain why you think some champions should be able to be played AP or AD, and why this increases your fun? To me it's sort of like saying that you want to build Mundo as an assassin, but there's no mechanics or items available to make it possible, and I don't understand the want.

Thanks!
I think it's because they only bother to learn how to play one champ effectively, and because of that they think that champ should always perform well regardless of what items they build.


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Griftrix

Senior Animation Engineer

04-19-2013
3 of 12 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Always MIA View Post
Griftix,
the desire comes from wanting to expand past the norm and see was works.

We see different champion mechanics and want test them out to see their limits and viability.

My personal favorite is Magic Pen Lee Sin with items like Wit's End and Sunfire Cape.
This also makes sense to me as a reason. Thank you for explaining . I get some of that feeling when I play jungle Galio, which is totally a thing. I also like that because end game we have a totally new option for team composition that has more CC than normal for control.


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Luthondis

Senior Member

04-19-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Griftrix View Post
I am intrigued by people who want to play non AP champions as AP. I don't understand the attraction. If you are someone who thinks this way, can you explain why you think some champions should be able to be played AP or AD, and why this increases your fun? To me it's sort of like saying that you want to build Mundo as an assassin, but there's no mechanics or items available to make it possible, and I don't understand the want.

Thanks!
God I remember having an ap Ashe that was part of a 3 man premade. Miss half of his arrows then said he doesn't care because he's having fun. Then his premade wanted to surrender at 20.


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Sophitia

Senior Member

04-19-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Griftrix View Post
I am intrigued by people who want to play non AP champions as AP. I don't understand the attraction. If you are someone who thinks this way, can you explain why you think some champions should be able to be played AP or AD, and why this increases your fun? To me it's sort of like saying that you want to build Mundo as an assassin, but there's no mechanics or items available to make it possible, and I don't understand the want.

Thanks!
I love to play AP Janna, so my response will be based off that.

1) It's unpredictable. If I pick Janna as AP mid in ranked, the other team immediately thinks I'm playing support, and it gives our team an inherent advantage in the champion selection process.
2) Some aspects to her kit benefit greatly from AP. People vastly underestimate the .9 ratio on her shield, and with some CD reduction, you're essentially giving someone on your team a free warmogs armor or two every team fight.
3) They have surprising burst. With lichbane being changed from AD damage to AP damage, it becomes significantly easier to burst someone with only two abilities and a lich bane proc. So much so, that people will greatly underestimate you late game, both in a team fight and in a one on one situation.
4) At the cost of less AP, you're giving your team a significantly higher amount of utility; you essentially have 2 supports instead of just one. Utility and hard CC wins games.


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Vacus

Senior Member

04-19-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Griftrix View Post
This is a pretty good explanation to me, but does AP Shyvana have a different play pattern? I understand the difference in Master Yi, thank you for pointing it out for me. If Shyvanna had AP ratios, what would her play pattern be?

Oh, and the "fire should have AP ratios cause it makes sense" seems less important than the things about play patterns.
AP Shyvana would want to do basically the same thing as AD Shyvana; you would want to keep enemies in Burnout, hit them with Flame Breath and then autoattack, use Twin Bite to double-proc Flame Breath, and slap people with your tail as you fly over them.

For Shyvana, the differences would be in power spikes. AD Shyvana's burst damage comes from Twin Bite, and is melee. AP Shyvana's burst damage would come from Flame Breath, and be ranged. AD Shyvana's sustained damage comes from Burnout early and autoattacks later; AP Shyvana's sustained damage would come purely from Burnout.

Overall, I would evaluate that given her full kit, AD Shyv would be stronger at single-target damage while AP Shyv would be better at AoE damage. In this particular case, there would be almost no difference in what you actually do, and is most likely not worth exerting any effort towards supporting AP Shyv.


My first post was mostly intended to express the general case, not the specific one, since your question was about the general case


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Griftrix

Senior Animation Engineer

04-19-2013
4 of 12 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sophitia View Post
I love to play AP Janna, so my response will be based off that.

1) It's unpredictable. If I pick Janna as AP mid in ranked, the other team immediately thinks I'm playing support, and it gives our team an inherent advantage in the champion selection process.
2) Some aspects to her kit benefit greatly from AP. People vastly underestimate the .9 ratio on her shield, and with some CD reduction, you're essentially giving someone on your team a free warmogs armor or two every team fight.
3) They have surprising burst. With lichbane being changed from AD damage to AP damage, it becomes significantly easier to burst someone with only two abilities and a lich bane proc. So much so, that people will greatly underestimate you late game, both in a team fight and in a one on one situation.
4) At the cost of less AP, you're giving your team a significantly higher amount of utility; you essentially have 2 supports instead of just one. Utility and hard CC wins games.
But AP Janna is really strong. Her kit works with it very well. This doesn't seem like it's (to quote Westley Snipes) "ice skating uphill".