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Morello Nerf Bat

Senior Member

04-02-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThatNinjaGuy View Post
With Rylai's none can escape you

Do you even Soraka?

Kite with Q for days


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Fish Fillet

Senior Member

04-02-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xin it to Win It View Post
Her stuff does not really seem to scale well with AP.
Static Shiv, Lich Bane Sona is an actual thing I've heard works.


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cottonycloud

Senior Member

04-02-2013

Trinity Force on Sona is boss.


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Hi Geoffrey

aka Bazner

Follow Xin it to Win It on Twitter

04-02-2013
109 of 123 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by cottonycloud View Post
Trinity Force on Sona is boss.
She's not the boss of me.


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sleepyj101

Senior Member

04-02-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xin it to Win It View Post
She's not the boss of me.
Xin, shush.


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MEMEME670

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Senior Member

04-02-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xin it to Win It View Post
It's not that you are stuck in Silver, it's that right now you are a Silver level player. I find that as I learn more strategy and get better mechanical skill, I have been moving up. Most often when I lose, I could have adjusted in some way and failed to. For example, I am doing ok mid, but bottom is losing, so I head down there and help.
(DISCLAIMER: This is a large wall of text, and might have coherency issues, although everything I bring up here is true. There's a TL;DR at the bottom.)

This I question.

As a support main, it is not always possible for me to do such things. In solo queue, I feel my rating is based more off of my adc and the general preformance of my team than what I do alone.

The general thing people say is that over a long period of time, if you influence the game in a way that helps your team win, you will win more than you lose.

Now, this is generally true. But as a support player, I feel much more is reliant on both 1. me playing a VERY LARGE number of games, and 2. getting matched with proficent ADC players.

This is because, while support can basically define the lane phase, once you're out of it, if your adc partner isn't good? Your lane as a whole has influenced the game negatively (on average), due to the difference in impact of the two roles.

Now, you might say this is the same for all other roles also, I mean if their teammates suck, they'll lose games too.

But look at it this way. On a scale of 1-10(10 being good), let's say we have

Team 1
Support A - 7
ADC A - 4

Team 2
ADC B - 7
Support B - 4

What's generally going to happen (assuming they manage to pick into an even matchup, meaning ADC A picks both a synergistic ADC to the support, and doesn't counterpick himself (I've seen way too many graves v caitlyn games where I have no influence)) is that Team 2 will win the lane, and both members of that lane will have more game-influence than the two members of Team 1.

This is because in lane, if the ADC is worse they will 1. Farm worse and/or 2. Fight worse.

If they fight worse? I have no influence. I can go in as leona on the bad support, but if my ADC is bad I will simply die for nothing (or end up on the bad end of a 2 for 1). Otherwise, I can refrain from going in, causing my overall lane presence to be 0, and allowing the ADC's to determine the lane by default. Otherwise, they can get harassed out of lane before I have much of a chance to do anything.

If they farm worse? Unless I can somehow get them to win fights, we will lose the lane flat out.

Now, if the ADC loses that doesn't necissarily mean I lose, right? Wrong. If the ADC loses and we lose tower or dragon control? The other support gets more money and gets aegis or other important items faster, giving them impact I can't match.

Even if they don't, go try, as a support who won lane, to have more influence than an ADC who did. It won't happen very often.

Sure, they might not know exactly where to ward exactly when. But in platinum? People have surpassed not knowing to ward the lane bushes, dragon, or baron. And unless I can SERIOUSLY outplay the enemy support (difficult when they don't act dumb, just playing safe if they know they aren't that good) the lane ends up being controlled by how good of an ADC I get matched with//against.

'But mememe, doesn't this mean you win if your adc is better and you are a worse support?' Yes, yes it does.

But this means ranked, for me, isn't about skill once I reach a certain point. It's simply about matchmaking, and the randomness involved.

So, while I would claim I'm stuck in platinum, I would say it's not because I can't outplay the other support. I would say because, unlike in Silver or low Gold, the enemy support isn't dumb enough to feed, and once that happens, the ADC decides the lane.

Most often when I lose, I can hardly find relevant things to improve on. This isn't confirmation bias, this is me trying to improve (although nobody really talks due to large amounts of ragers, those that do don't tell me I did bad at all.) and not being able to find glaring flaws.

I'm still learning, I guess. But I find the more I learn the less I am content with the ADC players I get when we lose lane, and the more I feel I had less influence on the game than I needed to.

TL;DR My point is, I'm not stuck here because I can't beat the enemy I'm given. I'm stuck here because, as a support, if my ADC cannot our lane is lost, and that doesn't test my skill level accurately.


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Hi Geoffrey

aka Bazner

Follow Xin it to Win It on Twitter

04-03-2013
110 of 123 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by MEMEME670 View Post
TL;DR My point is, I'm not stuck here because I can't beat the enemy I'm given. I'm stuck here because, as a support, if my ADC cannot our lane is lost, and that doesn't test my skill level accurately.
The problem with that logic is that the support on the team you are matched against is dealing with the same randomness that you are. One way of handling this situation is to make friends and duo queue. The issue you will see with that is when your teammates ware interested in either the support or the add role and you need to negotiate in the pre-game lobby.

Another way of handling this comes down to champion selection. Right now I am having much better luck with Sona that I did with Leona. I believe this is because I can play far more passive with Sona. Even if my lane phase is just reduce the number of times my adc dies, I can still make a big impact in team fights.


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Zolarion Strife

Junior Member

04-03-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by MEMEME670 View Post
(DISCLAIMER:
As a support main, it is not always possible for me to do such things. In solo queue, I feel my rating is based more off of my adc and the general preformance of my team than what I do alone.
Isn't this the point of a support player? You support the team. There's plenty of ways to do this: Pick a tanky, initiator support (alistar, taric, leona) and take advantage of poor enemy positioning. Pick a damage-dealing support (zyra, lux, nidalee) and build into more of a carry role. Pick a disruption/keep-others-alive support (sona, lulu, nami) to allow your teammates to deal more damage than the enemy.

If I'm supporting and I've found that my ad carry is lackluster but my akali mid is doing well, then I will try to keep her alive more. Additionally, if you feel you are engaging and your adc is not following up, you can always communicate with him/her to make it go better. "I'll ping when I'm going to stun and go in, you follow up." If you need to switch targets in a lane fight, again, make use of pings and you make these decisions if you feel your adc shouldn't.

I'm also in silver and I've found that I've been able to have the most impact on games as a support player (I usually play nami) because I focus on keeping teammates alive and disrupting the enemy, usually to a greater degree of success than the enemy support regardless of whether I'm ahead or behind.


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Catches Axes

Senior Member

04-03-2013

Let's see.

As ADC, if I'm stuck with a bad support, the enemy ADC can get fed while I get denied, making it so I can't do anything later. And even if the support's pretty good and I crush my lane, if the other team happens to have picked some dive-y bruisers (I've faced some combination of three of Elise, Lee Sin, Xin Zhao, and J4 multiple times in my last 10 games), I'm extremely team reliant to be able to do much later in the game.

If I'm a terrible ADC and you're a great support, there's not much you can do about that, but the same is true if I'm a great ADC and you're a terrible support. If I'm an average ADC and you're a great support, my CS is much higher, my kills are higher, the enemy ADC is much worse off, and I've got more room to operate in team fights. That's a huge contribution. It just feels extra terrible when you do get stuck with a bad ADC.



The real problem is a perception problem.

If you're a better than average support for your rating, you elevate your team's chance of winning above 50%, all else being equal. If you're a better than average ADC, you elevate your team's chance of winning above 50% when you play ADC, all else being equal. But either way, you don't elevate your team's chance of winning by that much above 50%, which means that you're still going to have multiple games in a row where you do well and lose sometimes, and that's frustrating.

I say it's a perception problem because when you've played 20 total games, if your expected win rate is 55% (you're so much better than average at your position that you elevate your team's chance of victory to 55%, all else being equal), and you happen to just get unlucky, you could still be 9-11 or 10-10 pretty easily, and 7-13 isn't that far of an outlier. It feels like the system is broken, and it feels like you aren't having an effect on the game. But the truth is, if you really are better than average at your role each game, your expected win rate really is above 50%, and even if you have a run of 15 or 20 games that go against the odds, reversion to the mean kicks in eventually. If you play enough games, you will go up in rating. Enough games might mean 150 or 200, but still.


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GameZombie

Senior Member

04-03-2013

Hey buddy if you want to duo sometime feel free to hit me up I just went from bronze 5 to silver 5 this season and im on the up and up ;D