Zileas' List of Game Design Anti-Patterns

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TimelordMu

Senior Member

10-23-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Covenant View Post
Kassadin is a whole mess of anti-patterns
...And yet he is still incredibly fun to play.


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Zileas

VP of Game Design

10-23-2010
106 of 282 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Uccisore View Post
Hey Zileas: This doesn't necessarily apply to League of Legends, but how does game difficulty fall into this sort of analysis? Suppose a single-player example to keep it simple, but if you have two versions of a game where the mechanics and so on are essentially the same, except in Iteration B the 'bad guys' take twice as many hits to kill and the protagonist takes half as many hits to die, are there tools beyond personal preference to examine good design vs. bad?
I have in mind the game Demon's Souls, which got a lot of notoriety for being extremely hard. Some people loved the challenge, other people thought the lack of an easier difficulty was just an oversight.
Well, if its too hard, no one has fun. And enemies can do 'fair' things vs 'unfair' things. Getting stun locked in force unleashed is idiotic. But that's what happens when the power structure on game design decisions is:

#1 Animators
#2 Designers

Lots of games have been screwed over by that one -- where the line is drawn in favor of animators who are NOT designers on an action game.

I think the 'right' decision is -- if it doesnt impact controls, animators can do whatever crazy stuff they want, but if it impacts controls, designers need veto.


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Zileas

VP of Game Design

10-23-2010
107 of 282 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by TimelordMu View Post
...And yet he is still incredibly fun to play.
yeah but not because of the anti-patterns, the ambiguity on AP vs AD is not beneficial


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SonicTheHedgedawg

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Senior Member

10-23-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
You can bait out an early shield for one thing, and that's fun... If its blocking suppression ults, that's a bit of an issue... will investigate if so.
I agree.

Bum-rushing morgana as ryze and then not casting anything is hilarious.

it's like she KNOWS she's gonna eat it as soon ash that sheild drops.

Sorta the same thing for Vlad's sanguine pool.



I'll tell you what's really not fun for me though:
building hybrids.

Why? because of the items I have to get . . . I end up with no survivability and no mana. And if I buy those things, I have virtually no damage output.

I think hybrids would be a lot more fun if these issuses could have simple solutions.


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Uccisore

Senior Member

10-23-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
Well, if its too hard, no one has fun. And enemies can do 'fair' things vs 'unfair' things. Getting stun locked in force unleashed is idiotic. But that's what happens when the power structure on game design decisions is:

#1 Animators
#2 Designers

Lots of games have been screwed over by that one -- where the line is drawn in favor of animators who are NOT designers on an action game.

I think the 'right' decision is -- if it doesnt impact controls, animators can do whatever crazy stuff they want, but if it impacts controls, designers need veto.
It almost sounds like you're saying game difficulty (in action games, anyway) is more a function of animation than design! I like what you said about fairness, seems thats a whole other spectrum that's not quite the same as 'difficulty'.


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Reep

Senior Member

10-23-2010

Are you just going to skip over my post? =/

Edit: Guess so


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Lord Oliveira

Senior Member

10-23-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Oliveira View Post
So here's my question to Zileas:

How much steam does LoL have left in it as far as new mechanics and unique abilities go if by design there is a fear to implement unique things for fear of newbs not "understanding it"?

Are you really going to pump out champ after champ of old recycled skills just to say that it is "good design"? Isn't it by very definition an ANTI-DESIGN to keep making the SAME STUFF and just regraphicing it and putting it in a different order on a champ?

At some point in order to not have this game be so rehashed that hardcore players get tired of seeing 7 versions of ezreal's ulti that you have to add the so-called "burden of knowledge skills" just to have anything remotely worthwhile into the game.
Reposting this because I think it is the most unavoidable question for Zileas to answer. It is pretty obvious you can only do the same thing so many times before players move on to less boring and repetitious things.


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GeminiTroll

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Senior Member

10-23-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
It just depends. Passive skills IN GENERAL are less satisfying than active ones.

But it just depends.
For what it's worth, I love the skills that has a passive element and an active element, especially when using the active cancels the passive for a bit. I love the skills that force you to make that choice. I dunno of those fall under any anti-pattern or not though.


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November Terra

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Senior Member

10-23-2010

WHEN IS FLASH BEING REMOVED?!?!?!?!?!?

This made my day. SERIOUSLY. Soon? Later? Way later? Never? :O


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Explodey Pony

Member

10-23-2010

I love posts like this. Insight into design is always fun to read when it is about something you really like.