Zileas' List of Game Design Anti-Patterns

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Herkucheeze

Senior Member

10-23-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
well, we are removing flash
I've heard this song and dance before...

But if this is for realsies this time, will you be buffing characters that are flash-reliant (Annie, Fiddle, Alistar)?


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Leib Olmai

Senior Member

10-23-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfman27 View Post
I've heard this song and dance before...

But if this is for realsies this time, will you be buffing characters that are flash-reliant (Annie, Fiddle, Alistar)?
You mean nerfing ?


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TehGus

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Senior Member

10-23-2010

Lovely, Zil!


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Herkucheeze

Senior Member

10-23-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by LeCalinours View Post
You mean nerfing ?
I mean to say, will they BUFF characters that would be nerfed hard by flash being removed after they remove flash. Did it really seem like the other way around?


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Leib Olmai

Senior Member

10-23-2010

They might just put an item with the flash skill.


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Reep

Senior Member

10-23-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
well, we are removing flash
Recently I have been working with Guinsoo on the Alistar tweaks. He has some great ideas and I'm really looking forward to the patch where these changes go live.

Regardless, removing Flash is going to hurt Alistar more than you think. If you completely remove it from the game, Alistar is no longer going to be able to:

Flash Pulverize Headbutt (bread and butter)
Initiate teamfights properly (bread and butter for a tank...)
Flash Headbutt Pulverize
Flash Headbutt (different from the above)
Flash Triumphant Roar (been there, done that)
Flash Auto attack (almost every game...)

Even if you replace Flash with movespeed 2 boots with an active Flash, I will no longer purchase Mercury treads, which offer extremely necessary MR and CC reduction (almost more necessary than Flash). Considering the amount of kiting this game has, not having Mercury Treads is going to make playing Alistar even harder. Yes, in this case, I can run Cleanse over Flash now, but Cleanse still doesn't provide the MR that's really necessary in my build. Also, I wouldn't be suprised if these theoretical boots are more expensive than the smashing 1200g mercury treads.


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Dapacman

Senior Member

10-23-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reep View Post
Recently I have been working with Guinsoo on the Alistar tweaks. He has some great ideas and I'm really looking forward to the patch where these changes go live.

Regardless, removing Flash is going to hurt Alistar more than you think. If you completely remove it from the game, Alistar is no longer going to be able to:

Flash Pulverize Headbutt (bread and butter)
Initiate teamfights properly (bread and butter for a tank...)
Flash Headbutt Pulverize
Flash Headbutt (different from the above)
Flash Triumphant Roar (been there, done that)
Flash Auto attack (almost every game...)

Even if you replace Flash with movespeed 2 boots with an active Flash, I will no longer purchase Mercury treads, which offer extremely necessary MR and CC reduction (almost more necessary than Flash). Considering the amount of kiting this game has, not having Mercury Treads is going to make playing Alistar even harder. Yes, in this case, I can run Cleanse over Flash now, but Cleanse still doesn't provide the MR that's really necessary in my build.
Pretty much this.

The thing is, I'm supporting this because I understand how dependent Alistar is on Flash. I don't run Flash on Alistar generally, because I've played about 700 games with Ghost/Teleport and I've basically adapted to not having Flash in my repetoir. However, removing Flash is going to kill many Alistar players pretty bad.....that's a tough thing to remove. I understand the concept of a "get out of fail free card" hurting a lot of skilled players, but....Flash is something everybody can have....so why get rid of it completely?


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Zileas

VP of Game Design

10-23-2010
104 of 282 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfman27 View Post
I've heard this song and dance before...

But if this is for realsies this time, will you be buffing characters that are flash-reliant (Annie, Fiddle, Alistar)?
Zileas' slippers of majesty of course


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Zileas

VP of Game Design

10-23-2010
105 of 282 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Montoli View Post
Hey Zileas! Fun to see your thought process behind some of these things.

I have a question: What's your thought on "levelable passives?"

A lot of the older heroes have powers that you level, but that don't do anything when clicked. (Teemo's poison, Cho'goth's spikes, etc) A lot of the newer heroes have "Active powers that also have passives, many of which do things when clicked."

Just wondering if this has been an intentional move. From a "Games are a series of interesting choices" viewpoint, at first blush, it looks like that gives the player more decisions during gameplay. (Especially the ones where the passive turns off during cooldown.) Are we likely to see any "levelable passives" again, or have you been deliberately moving away from those?
It just depends. Passive skills IN GENERAL are less satisfying than active ones.

But it just depends.


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Uccisore

Senior Member

10-23-2010

Hey Zileas: This doesn't necessarily apply to League of Legends, but how does game difficulty fall into this sort of analysis? Suppose a single-player example to keep it simple, but if you have two versions of a game where the mechanics and so on are essentially the same, except in Iteration B the 'bad guys' take twice as many hits to kill and the protagonist takes half as many hits to die, are there tools beyond personal preference to examine good design vs. bad?
I have in mind the game Demon's Souls, which got a lot of notoriety for being extremely hard. Some people loved the challenge, other people thought the lack of an easier difficulty setting was just an oversight.