Zileas' List of Game Design Anti-Patterns

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Iaw

Member

10-23-2010

Zileas, how do you feel about Rng elements early game? Just as an example, I went against a Gangplank a few days ago that was getting insanely lucky and critting me on almost every attack in lane. Now while that may be fun for him and hes probably falling out of his chair laughing, it isn't really fun to go against something hitting that hard early game without a way to really avoid it.

For example, when I dodge hooks against Blitz crank in lane, I get a sense of satisfaction from it and it makes it fun to go against this ability. But non stop crits? Thats not really skillful or fun for the person being crit.

Now to turn the situation around, what if i'm playing a character like Gangplank and I have tons of crit based runes, but I almost never crit early/mid game? It makes me frustrated that i'm getting unlucky all game and makes me feel useless, since without crits, i'm not hitting very hard.

What about Dodges? Having someone dodge 5 consecutive attacks in a row early game as an example is pretty frustrating, and really takes no skill on their part.



Late game these stats are almost needed on some champions, so I understand their worth there, but the degree that they can effect the early game is just mind boggling.

I mean there really is no way to beat this,

As an example, if i'm dying to Morgana's dark binding due to being jumped by her team after being hit, I can buy items to counter it, which means I have the knowledge and tools to counter her Dark Binding, which gives me a sense of satisfaction, as well as the fact that its fun to successfully dodge a Dark Binding, while for Morgana its fun to hit with a Dark Binding.

Rng elements early game just seem to remove all of that.


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Zileas

VP of Game Design

10-23-2010
101 of 282 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamah View Post
Tom what's your opinion on Morgana's shield? It's completely anti-fun. It literally goes against nearly everything you take pride in. It blocks ULTIMATES, and you can get it at level 1.

I can understand the small parts of it that reward players such as Morgana times her shield perfectly allowing her to dodge and make her opponent waste her ability. Or, her opponent chases her down (in rare cases) and times their spell to hit them when her shield goes off.

My biggest beef is that it blocks ultimates, which is insane for what type of skill it is.

Also, my buddy Nhan is rocking back and forward in his chair in despair of chronic pain.

Make him feel better by reviewing this for the 3rd time http://www.leagueoflegends.com/board...d.php?t=267797.

He's already bribed a red with 50+ tacos to review it, he wasn't goin for it.
You can bait out an early shield for one thing, and that's fun... If its blocking suppression ults, that's a bit of an issue... will investigate if so.


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Zileas

VP of Game Design

10-23-2010
102 of 282 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iaw View Post
Zileas, how do you feel about Rng elements early game? Just as an example, I went against a Gangplank a few days ago that was getting insanely lucky and critting me on almost every attack in lane. Now while that may be fun for him and hes probably falling out of his chair laughing, it isn't really fun to go against something hitting that hard early game without a way to really avoid it.

For example, when I dodge hooks against Blitz crank in lane, I get a sense of satisfaction from it and it makes it fun to go against this ability. But non stop crits? Thats not really skillful or fun for the person being crit.

Now to turn the situation around, what if i'm playing a character like Gangplank and I have tons of crit based runes, but I almost never crit early/mid game? It makes me frustrated that i'm getting unlucky all game and makes me feel useless, since without crits, i'm not hitting very hard.

What about Dodges? Having someone dodge 5 consecutive attacks in a row early game as an example is pretty frustrating, and really takes no skill on their part.



Late game these stats are almost needed on some champions, so I understand their worth there, but the degree that they can effect the early game is just mind boggling.

I mean there really is no way to beat this,

As an example, if i'm dying to Morgana's dark binding due to being jumped by her team after being hit, I can buy items to counter it, which means I have the knowledge and tools to counter her Dark Binding, which gives me a sense of satisfaction, as well as the fact that its fun to successfully dodge a Dark Binding, while for Morgana its fun to hit with a Dark Binding.

Rng elements early game just seem to remove all of that.
I hate early game RNG, which is why we are adding psuedorandom.

the only value they add is that you occasionally get random positive outcomes in your favor that feel memorable, but I dont think they overall add enough.


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MegaZero

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Senior Member

10-23-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
Fun Fails to Exceed Anti-Fun
This is where the 'anti-fun' created on your opponents by your use of a mechanic is greater than your fun in using the mechanic. Dark Binding is VERY favorable on this measurement, because opponents get clutch dodges just like you get clutch hits. On the other hand, a strong mana burn is NOT desirable -- if you drain someone to 0 you feel kinda good, and they feel TERRIBLE -- so the anti-fun is exceeded by the fun. This is important because the goal of the game is for players to have fun, so designers should seek abilities that result in a net increase of fun in the game. Basic design theory, yes?
So... how do you justify Flash and Ghost? Very little enjoyment when you get away from a 5 man gank, Very Very frustrating when you can't gank someone with 5 people.


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Zileas

VP of Game Design

10-23-2010
103 of 282 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by MegaZero View Post
So... how do you justify Flash and Ghost? Very little enjoyment when you get away from a 5 man gank, Very Very frustrating when you can't gank someone with 5 people.
well, we are removing flash


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Montoli

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Senior Member

10-23-2010

Hey Zileas! Fun to see your thought process behind some of these things.

I have a question: What's your thought on "levelable passives?"

A lot of the older heroes have powers that you level, but that don't do anything when clicked. (Teemo's poison, Cho'goth's spikes, etc) A lot of the newer heroes have "Active powers that also have passives, many of which do things when clicked."

Just wondering if this has been an intentional move. From a "Games are a series of interesting choices" viewpoint, at first blush, it looks like that gives the player more decisions during gameplay. (Especially the ones where the passive turns off during cooldown.) Are we likely to see any "levelable passives" again, or have you been deliberately moving away from those?


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Garion

Senior Member

10-23-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
well, we are removing flash
is it 100% confirmed?


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Leib Olmai

Senior Member

10-23-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
well, we are removing flash
What are your plan toward it ?
Are you guys going to "replace it" by an item or just remove it until you find a way to fix it ?

Is there any plan on putting more summoner's spell ?
Removing alot of them while taking in account some are not usefull at all most of the time (Revive, Rally, even heal !) don't give us alot of choice in the end.


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Rogmarz

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Master Recruiter

10-23-2010

You took out Promote, now probably Flash; Revive and Rally are sub-par. Ghost is still top tier. Exhaust and Ignite are "anti-fun". We need Summoner spell reworks more than Champion reworks.


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Tricolor

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Senior Member

10-23-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
well, we are removing flash
first time someone red posted that was like 5-6 months ago...