The new Karma is rather stale and there are some design points I question

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Naokazu

Senior Member

03-31-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Larias View Post
E2 as a base ability would have been stupidly strong (old E2). New E2 would be lackluster even if E2 was base.
This is why I compared it to Time Bomb, they actually do more base damage with better scaling, can be doubled up, and have similar range.


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Mihlo

Senior Member

03-31-2013

I have serious problems with her Q, while the rest of her kit requires being near or at danger close range.... Q is a Mystic Shot clone with high damage burst every 27 seconds (at max CDR, with a best case of 15 seconds). I feel like it doesn't belong in there, that having a long range skillshot when your two other abilities involve close quarters duels is quite awkward.

Her W is interesting, it was even more interesting when it healed for a flat amount equal to her damage + AP, it healed for very high amounts, high enough that Karma could actually go toe to toe with Kha'zix and make him regret trying to combo her, it lead to an interesting choice: Should you max Q for safer long range poke and farm, or max W for greater aggression and dueling power at the cost of being able to farm effectively?

The last minute change to her W heal pretty much killed W as a good spell beyond the root.

Her E is awful, just awful, not only does it have a weaker base + ratio than its predecessor, but it has a MS boost attached to it, which at first seems nice until you actually use it, then you realize that the two functions are at odds with each other, and that while it is useful for peeling an ally, its utility beyond that leaves you stressing over whether to use it on your initiator and then not having it up for whenever someone dives your ADC or to save it for the protection portion of the ability. It is a consolidated version her W + E combo, and a very watered down version at that.

On mantra...oh boy, from Scarizard during the AMA:

Quote:
For something that seems like an afterthought, it was actually one of the pillars that this rework was based on - the idea of her new theme and playstyle would no longer be 'I have 2 coins and 3 slots what do', but about 'I have to make a decision RIGHT NOW' and then put you in a spot where you can take action to 'buyback' her Mantra - giving her sometimes 2-3 Mantra'd abilities per fight.
How on earth is 1 coin but 3 slots better than 2 coins?

How is it better that your one decision right now can become the wrong decision 5 seconds later?

How is it better that the player has to go through all this work just to become on parity with other champions though this buyback mechanic? She used to obtain 2 -3 charges without the additional buyback stuff. The way buyback is done on Karma isn't fun at all, its more of a burden than a boon to her playstyle.

How is it better that the best case scenario for Mantra's cooldown is 15 seconds? Old Karma could do that in 12 seconds, without having to spam abilities and burn mana pointlessly and rely on a best case scenario that doesn't happen all the time.

The buyback mechanic was supposed to alleviate her dependence on having mantra up as often as possible, which made cdr cap mandatory on old Karma. Yet the situation remains the same, you still need cdr cap to bring mantra up as often as possible, except that now Karma is even more mana hungry than before because of the buyback mechanic, it has only added additional complexity for what seems to be nothing gained.

If this was one of the pillars of the rework, then that pillar is made of sand, because Mantra feels worse than before, and as a result Karma seems worse than before.

EDIT: Removed caps lock, was trying to emphasize, but upon later reading it again just comes off as a tirade.


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Larias

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03-31-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotSchmick View Post
I apologize if I gave the impression of trying to send this discussion to an early death. You are right, I did not have the context that the other forums are considered graveyards to the community. My intention definitely was NOT to give lip service, or to make it seem that no one at Riot cares or will read what you have to say, so again I apologize. My attempt to be helpful was misplaced in this case.
Schmick, I don't think that anyone other than a few irrational people are angry at you.

There's no need to apologize.


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Akias

Senior Member

03-31-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Larias View Post
Schmick, I don't think that anyone other than a few irrational people are angry at you.

There's no need to apologize.
Not at all, Most were just pointing out what a post like that appears as. No more No less.


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Cryswar

Senior Member

03-31-2013

Crybabies really do QQ about everything. New Karma is amazing. Instead of doing your useless GD QQ about how WAHHH MY FAVORITE CHAMPION CHAAAANGED despite most of you not even playing her, let the dust settle and try out new stuff on her for a few weeks. I'm pretty sure that someone will figure out how to make her tick, maybe even be OP, and while the exact mechanics have changed she DOES have most of her more iconic abilities to one degree or another - mixed with some very cool new tricks.

Seriously. Stop crying. This is pathetic.


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Afflictid

Senior Member

03-31-2013

Her mantra CD is too long, and her Q radius is too small. Her Q and Shield ratio's need buffing.


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Cuix

Senior Member

03-31-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotSchmick View Post
I apologize if I gave the impression of trying to send this discussion to an early death. You are right, I did not have the context that the other forums are considered graveyards to the community. My intention definitely was NOT to give lip service, or to make it seem that no one at Riot cares or will read what you have to say, so again I apologize. My attempt to be helpful was misplaced in this case.
This is true, but thanks so much for the attempt! I actually asked IronStylus, in another thread, where we should go to give feedback, and he was also somewhat unsure. It seems to me that there's an issue here, where GD is oversaturated with posts and attention, especially in comparison to other boards. Could you try initiating a chat with other Rioters about that, and start helping us change that? I'm sure folks with feedback about Karma, Trundle, and others would love to have somewhere where threads aren't instantly sunk, heh.


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RiotSchmick

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03-31-2013
4 of 28 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Larias View Post
Schmick, compare the amount of champion balance responses on the champion feedback forum to GD. I'm sorry other people were rude but it is true that threads get responses on GD and they do not on the champion feedback forum. Sorry
No reason for you to apologize. You weren't rude in the least.


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Larias

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03-31-2013

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Originally Posted by RiotSchmick View Post
No reason for you to apologize. You weren't rude in the least.
Careful, one might think you have an ulterior motive for keeping the thread bumped!




Edit: I just got spit-roasted by Schmick. Not sure if hot or not...


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RiotSchmick

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03-31-2013
5 of 28 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rauron View Post
This is true, but thanks so much for the attempt! I actually asked IronStylus, in another thread, where we should go to give feedback, and he was also somewhat unsure. It seems to me that there's an issue here, where GD is oversaturated with posts and attention, especially in comparison to other boards. Could you try initiating a chat with other Rioters about that, and start helping us change that? I'm sure folks with feedback about Karma, Trundle, and others would love to have somewhere where threads aren't instantly sunk, heh.
I can try initiating a chat. I can't guarantee any particular outcomes, but I will ask about it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Larias View Post
Careful, one might think you have an ulterior motive for keeping the thread bumped!
Lol, every time I post a reply, there's another response! Not my fault!

Quote:
Originally Posted by twitching ferret View Post
Not at all, Most were just pointing out what a post like that appears as. No more No less.
Fair enough, and I was just pointing out how it wasn't intended how it appeared.