The new Karma is rather stale and there are some design points I question

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FrozenBlades

Senior Member

03-31-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotSchmick View Post
Hey Larias, if you post discussions like this one in the Champion Feedback forum (http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/...isplay.php?f=4), it's more likely to be seen by the people who work on the champions. General Discussion moves so fast and is full of so many different things, that specific feedback like this can easily get missed.
Well, then can i be a sonofa***** and impose on you to check out my thread there and give me some feedback.
(http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/...php?p=36226789)


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Yma Sumac

Member

03-31-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazedPorcupine View Post
What's funny is that the PBE testers found both Karma and Zac completely balanced... SUCK IT GD.
it has nothing to do with balance

stupid pleb

it's about her old design and how much more potential and possibility it had

now she is just a standard derptard caster.


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isabella valenti

Member

03-31-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jowy Avilon View Post
As another Karma player, I agree pretty much with all the points brought up by Larias. As he said, she definitely needed to change, but the change they did make I don't feel was in the right direction. I would add more, but Larias pretty much covered all the points I would have also brought up.
RIOT IM BEGGING YOU WE NEED OLD KARMA! her new visuals are really good but her skills not so much. im not asking to totally bring old karma back. just tweak her skills! for example the range on her shield(the explosion) and also why in the fuucks sake is her W not ally or minion targetable!! i mean thats just not fun.


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Regisun

Senior Member

03-31-2013

Larias, you spoke my mind.
10/10


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DannyPhantumm

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Senior Member

03-31-2013

She's so BORING now. Bump.

Her W not being able to cast on Allies is so... bland.
Having only 1 mantra on a 30-40 second CD makes her feel so useless.
Her Q is so.... crappy. I have to use my R to make it an AoE? Lulu's Q is AoE and doesn't need to have a Mantra Ult.


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Hoofster

Senior Member

03-31-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saint Mudknot View Post
Oh really? Riot cant see the flood of Karma UP/BAD and Zac OP threads that have been flooding GD since they launched?

Open your eyes more?
Interesting, did zac get last minute changes? Cause he was rather weak on the pbe, we just sent a support to harass him when he went after his second buff. Puts him so far behind your jungle. Is he laning? Cause any good ranged poke shuts that down. Olaf is good.


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Naokazu

Senior Member

03-31-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Larias View Post
Wait, what? E2 was incredibly strong. Like, ridiculously so. Q2 was a fantastic AoE heal. And you thought they were weak?
The secondary component of the spell felt like a basic ability, a shield bomb dealt damage like Zilean's bombs, her heal didn't have a direct equivalent on another champion, but I guess it was close to Alistar's heal only on a longer cooldown, her tether's combined base and mantra speed boost and slow was equal to Orianna's Command: Dissonance.

To be perfectly clear, I had no problem with that, I was fine with R being another basic skill for her, I'm just trying to explain Riots motives in their changes; they thought the problem was that her mantra'd abilities didn't feel ultimate, and in the course of solving that they made her basic abilities feel worthless.

I'm of the opinion that all she needed was improvements to her W, damage over time to the target and a root at the end if mantra'd would have been enough. Reducing the ranks of her abilities to 5 and having her Mantra rank decide the potency of the secondary effects would also have been welcome if that's what Riot really wanted.


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Larias

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Adjudicator

03-31-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Naokazu View Post
The secondary component of the spell felt like a basic ability, a shield bomb dealt damage like Zilean's bombs, her heal didn't have a direct equivalent on another champion, but I guess it was close to Alistar's heal only on a longer cooldown, her tether's combined base and mantra speed boost and slow was equal to Orianna's Command: Dissonance.

To be perfectly clear, I had no problem with that, I was fine with R being another basic skill for her, I'm just trying to explain Riots motives in their changes; they thought the problem was that her mantra'd abilities didn't feel ultimate, and in the course of solving that they made her basic abilities feel worthless.

I'm of the opinion that all she needed was improvements to her W, damage over time to the target and a root at the end if mantra'd would have been enough. Reducing the ranks of her abilities to 5 and having her Mantra rank decide the potency of the secondary effects would also have been welcome if that's what Riot really wanted.
E2 as a base ability would have been stupidly strong (old E2). New E2 would be lackluster even if E2 was base.


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RiotSchmick

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Software Engineer

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03-31-2013
3 of 28 Riot Posts

I apologize if I gave the impression of trying to send this discussion to an early death. You are right, I did not have the context that the other forums are considered graveyards to the community. My intention definitely was NOT to give lip service, or to make it seem that no one at Riot cares or will read what you have to say, so again I apologize. My attempt to be helpful was misplaced in this case.


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Bombkirby

Senior Member

03-31-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Larias View Post
It's not a balance issue....
I disagree. I believe it is a balancing issue. Simply tweak the numbers and this could easily work. Lower mantra cooldown could easily make her fun like old Karma. Increase the redius size of mantra Q and the damage and it could be fun instead of useless and generic. Increase the OOMF and frequency of all of her skills (mantra'd skills that is) and she'll be a lot of fun.

New Karma coooould be like this...Q->Root->Uh oh! Gotta shield that guy -> Uh oh I gotta slow those guys chasing me! MANTRA Q! -> Shield that guy!-> Q-> Uh oh incoming AoE damage! MANTRA SHIELD! -> Root that guy -> Q -> Shield the ADC -> Ahh! I'm almost dead! MANTRA HEAL! That intense decision making has a lot of potential! If...we could actually DO IT! Casting multiple Mantra skills every couple of casts over the course of a teamfight would be a lot more fun than old Karma's "Mantra Q!!! Mantra Shield!!! ...aaaand thats all ya get this teamfight...." or current Karma's even more simplified "Mantra shield!!! Okay that's all I got for this teamfight...."

Speaking of Q.... you called it a generic skill shot. Old Q was a generic coneshot. There's tons of those in the game already! (Rumble, Mordekaiser, Annie, etc etc etc) It seemed like your weakest argument IMO. Everything else was valid and arguable but this was just 100% biased. What's the difference between an easy to hit with Coneshot and the new Skillshot? The old one doesn't even fit a support character. All the old Q did was do damage. This one is Q to do damage and heavily slow people...and supports like moves with actual CC on them. The new Q works much better without putting her in the way danger like the old short range one which took no effort to aim. The healing portion was cool, but that was also problem. Morello said old Karma was in a spot that made her either OP or UP with no inbetween, probably because she had a little too many tools at her disposal. A big heal, a big shield, heavy slows? Woah woah woah! Lets tone it down! You can't have everything!