Sivir remake™

First Riot Post
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2Dha The Buddhah

Senior Member

03-31-2013

^^ Can't wait for it, I can finally feel proud of my Sivir skin. ETA perhaps?


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Beezil

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Senior Member

03-31-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crai Crushna View Post
I want a Captain America Skin for her, and yes I know CA is male but it would be hot on her.
oh the horrors!

"Shield BASH!"
"Starts and Stripes!"

****ing Marvel Vs Capcom all over again.


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Beezil

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Senior Member

03-31-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamochawoke View Post
Huge... tracts of land?
No he means she will have a pregnant Sivir skin in the works soon.


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RAGC

Senior Member

03-31-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by IronStylus View Post
Oh you!
sion next plez. more urgent


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Noblepeasant

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Senior Member

03-31-2013

She needs a college skin (like Brolaf) related to ultimate frisbee


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Luscious Lenny

Senior Member

03-31-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Great Owl View Post
But I feel he is so omnipresent that its hard to talk about her in any other way. But more over I'm afraid of what he might do to Sivir/Sejuani etc where he is involved in relaunches and may be able to put his personal understandings into action. I haven't seen it so far, but he does participate in lore discussions and seems to be pushing stuff like DianaXLeona one sided relationships that aren't implied in lore, and I'm just worried he'll overstep that line and push their personality sideways. It might do nothing, but it might ruin certain players interpretations.
except for the fact that he is not apart of the lore team.

and that while there is zero evidence to your claims, he stands behind what his fellow lore creators create and pushes those idea's.

he is a splash artist


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Purple Starmie

Senior Member

03-31-2013

Bump for Greatness Remake


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exe3

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Senior Member

03-31-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by IronStylus View Post
I'm actually cool with her being sort of ostentatious to some regard. That's attitude and personality. "Hey, I'm warrior princess lady, ready for battle, but I do love to flaunt some style." At the very least that's an angle. That's a reason for jewels, or other spoils, to be worn by her.
Honestly (having never read her lore) I thought she was a warrior princess from some tribe. :S Is she really from Noxus? If so I hope this is changed and the angle of Warrior Princess is pursued. I think she does need a kit rework as well. Unlike Karma and Trundle I think Sivir is one of the few that really does need a relaunch.


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IronStylus

Sr. Concept Artist

03-31-2013
19 of 55 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rauron View Post
Obviously, yeah. For all I know, the Sivir update will be exactly what I'd like to see out of her. However, I feel that it's safe to assume that we won't know the direction, the ideas, and the theme until most of the work is already done. I disagree with that choice, and hope my assumption is wrong, but that's what happened with Karma and Trundle, as well as Soraka visually.

I feel very disappointed by the Karma and Trundle remakes, which is a discussion for another thread. My point is, I worry that Sivir will, when remade, further change how LoL feels to me in a negative way, and I'd like to know what avenues of discussion would be most fruitful. Consolidated mega-threads in GD with some scattered grumblings doesn't seem to be optimal, so what is preferred? Again, I get that this isn't an issue yet, but being able to respond meaningfully and quickly is something I value, and I'm hoping y'all would be slow to turn down a more concise and effective dialogue.

Edit, to clarify: I can make my point quite a bit more concise: In the face of "updates" which are often more like full remakes, I, as a player, feel powerless, which is uncomfortable and disappointing, especially with how Riot once felt. Assuming that player feedback is still actively desired, and given that the topic is a VU/remake, what avenues of communication are most effective? Also, will the update/remake be almost done before we see it?

Here's the thing, and this is probably going to be essay length here, so, ya know, strap in.

The VU and Relaunch initiative will always be contentious, it will always be passionately debated and it will always leave some feeling disenfranchised. That, unfortunately, is the nature of content creation in League of Legends. This goes into base champion development, skin development, features, maps, balance, everything. Managing expectations is key, and we can only do so much to front load the process, mitigating feedback, selectively incorporating the actionable feedback, all wrapped up in shipping something on time, to millions of people.

To be blunt, we cannot practically crowd source the work that Relaunch has to do. We can collect a certain amount of data (Davin has a much better perspective on that than I do), we can take a look at community feedback, and we can trust our guts as developers and players ourselves. This will never be perfect, and yes, sometimes hearts will be broken. This is unavoidable, but there's necessity in upping quality, making cohesive themes, and adding to our universe where there's opportunity.

We realize certain champions are iconic and lovable but honestly, some of those iconic associations relate to sub-par execution. A character has gone awry and ended up to be not what was intended, and it’s become so niche due to execution that it’s creating problems with the development of the roster and the world as a whole.

Back in the day we didn't have as many resources as we do now. We were not able to take on the Herculean task of IP development. We have the opportunity now where we can make decisions in a non-one-off basis and instead on a much more holistic level, where we're treating each character as a part of a diverse and deep universe. Right now that's pretty easy with new content, but it leaves gaping holes in old content. Older content feels clunky, low fidelity, and not cohesive. That does need to be rectified if we hope to maintain and strengthen a universe that has depth, breadth, and contrast. We now can construct the framework we will abide by and execute going forward and retroactively. This is a big initiative, it can be a painful process, but its for the health of the organism as a whole.

Let's take for example Zac. He's a fantastic example of all the current guidelines in place. He has a cohesive backstory with grounding in a faction, a relationship with that faction, a relationship with his family in that faction, and a corresponding or reactionary personality in relation to that faction. Personality wise, he has a reason to be what he is. Mechanically, this strong foundational storytelling makes him feel exactly like th e product of his story, and the embodiment of his theme, gooey blob guy who's misunderstood and despite is icky outward appearance, due to his upbringing, has a heart of gold. This is concise, this is complete.

All three pillars of art, creative design, and game design are equally strengthened by a cohesive theme and fantasy. Those pillars are not necessarily in place with a lot of old content. That content needs those pillars if its to live up to the fidelity and thematic consistency that were trying to make standard. That process will inexorably rip out the guts of some of that content depending on if we feel there is a much stronger theme or enhancement we can embrace. However, I’m under no illusion that this might be a little troubling to people who feel their favorite characters are under assault. Often though, large scale changes are made only when we feel a character is a little flat. It’s not without really good reason that we do such changes.

That said, no assurances from our side will completely convince everyone, that’s just not possible. Change is difficult, and we understand that. We also however, as developers who are extremely in touch with the product we work on, feel as though we’re trustworthy enough to carry out major overhauls of character which we see opportunity in reforging. We make the game, we do have a little bit of knowledge on its workings. Indeed, we’ll be accused of dismantling that which is charming or endearing, but that’s a particular perspective. One person’s version of strengthening a character is another’s version of diluting. We cannot please everyone, but we can indeed make the best effort to shore up the structural foundation of a character that needs love holistically, and possibly dramatically.

That might seem like a lofty directive, or significant taking of licence on our part, but we believe this is healthy. This very much can be viewed in terms of balance. We balance mechanically, now we’re balancing creatively and artistically. As the “meta” changes, which it is, we are accounting for that with upping the quality of the content’s visuals, and balancing out the lore and story where it needs to be adjusted. I realize that’s sort of a clinical way of approaching it, but this is essentially a formulaic explanation of a situation that’s very emotional and personal. We do have to do it however, for the health of our visual quality consistency and the cohesion of our IP.

Also, we have to look globally at this. Realize, that when any dev comes out here on the NA forums, we are addressing a miniscule fraction of the overall reaction to a particular piece of content. Not to diminish the voices that we hear, because every piece of positively framed feedback is sought and mulled over by us, but it represents a small fraction of the overall audience. We don’t want to be guided specifically by the mass sway of the population at large, especially when dealing with niche character types, we do absolutely need to take a global approach, find out what is appealing, and adjust if we feel it’s necessary. That adjustment however is not driven by numbers, or by particular cultural representation in our audience, it’s driven solely by our internal creative vision and desire to balance out the visual and creative quality. We are not ignoring any passionate argument or feedback, we are carefully weighing all of it. We read all of it, and we selectively utilize what we can when it’s actionable.

I realize that this stark analysis of the process can seem disenfranchising, that’s sort of a given in any situation that involves change. You are inherently disenfranchising a segment of the population that is accustomed to the status quo when you make the change, that’s just a fact. We have to mitigate the fallout from that unavoidable damage by creating contingencies such as traditional skins, or other aspect that we can retain in a character to properly give the respect to the existing player base that they deserve. We can try soften the blow to the players who are attached, but in the end, we are dealing with massive changes obviously. I completely understand and honor that feeling of disruption to something they are accustomed to. We are not trying to make unhappy players, we are trying to better the content to allow more people to enjoy that content, and broaden appeal, but not for the sake of broadening appeal.

Dealing with niche audiences is obviously also challenging. When we look at niches, we find that the players who very much enjoy the character are heavily entrenched. They are passionate, they have found charm in places where other players don’t, they take thier love of a character to such a deep level that it’s very painful for them to witness such changes. That’s honestly why we go to the lengths we go to. We do a whole lot of analysis, internally, to consider those most passionate players above all.

It guides a lot of our decision making. We want to broaden appeal as I’ve stated, but we want to remain true in any way possible. That’s extremely difficult. So, thats why we do traditional skins, that’s why we do messaging, that’s why guys like me, Grumpy Monkey and Morello get out here to try to explain process and reasoning. It’s not always going to soothe however, and we know that. We’ve prepared ourselves for the storm of feedback, with its share of negative feedback, and we willingly accept the responsibility. Some of us on Relaunch have specifically been chosen to work on the team for the specific reason that we can communicate on top of the ability to execute our craft. We’re highly cognizant of community sentiment, we integrate what feedback we can, and we’re able to explain our motivations. That’s why I say that I’m happy to tank. I’ll gladly shoulder burden and blame, and I’l explain my reasoning, but I’ll also hold my ground where I feel we’re achieving proper goals.

In terms of player communication back to the team, that’s a very excellent question ask which I don’t know the answer to. I’m not sure about what the right conduits back to the team from the public are. We do a heavy audit of the forums obviously, but maybe that’s not enough. We also do data analysis, we consult with Rioters who are close to particular champions, or who may have been there at their creation, and we meet a lot about goals and fulfilling those goals. Maybe we do need to find another way for players to communicate back, but I can’t really speak to that. It’s something I can raise, but again, I don’t think that there will be a panacea here. There will still be discontent wherever we have change. Our task is to mitigate the discontent and explain our reasoning.

I think a key component we need to rely on is messaging. Documenting and showing our development process. At least that shows that we’re not making these changes on a whim, or without consideration. That will address some of the base’s concerns, but again, will only go so far. My feeling though is that because of the passion surrounding relaunches we need to have a good messaging strategy and good explanations. That’s part of our job.
It’s going to sound dumb, but people will have to at the end of the day trust us. We’re not operating in a vacuum, divorced from player feedback, making decisions on numbers or other such assumptions. There needs to be a two way street of respect between players and developers. Just like we are trying to honor even the most niche slice of players, and make really sweeping judgements that are aligned with those slices, we need the trust of players to execute as craftsman. I know it’s going to be difficult, I know there will be inherent disenfranchisement, but we do know what we’re doing.

If we do screw up, which we will, we are as I say all the time, iterative. We can in fact try again. We, in the end, are doing this for our players, 100%. These initiatives need to feel valuable, that we’re adding as much love to our old content as we do to our content going forward. If this is deemed unsuccessful, then we have to admit it as such. So far, we’ve seen extremely positive reception to relaunches and VU’s. We see that players feel that we’re investing in content they know and love when we’re not obligated to do, we see interest in those champions rise, we see people theorycrafting with renewed vigor, and we see engagement. Depending on the severity of the VU/relaunch however, we know that there will be touchy aspects. Just like everything, we’re going to analyze how we’ve done in these extreme cases and gague how effective we’ve been, and how the players have reacted. We’re going to act, we’re going to analyse and we’re going to iterate, as we’ve done before and will do again.

We feel this will indeed be valuable, but the players will be the judge.


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Adibash

Junior Member

03-31-2013

O_O