The new Karma is rather stale and there are some design points I question

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Akias

Senior Member

03-31-2013

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Originally Posted by Sessamo View Post
Saying only the things she lost and leaving out the things she gained just makes you look silly. New Karma is a really solid carry. Giving her a slow on her low cooldown, 1k ranged nuke gives her insane control. Mantra shield is was better in team fights now.
I think the skills themselves are way more focused and sensible for a carry. It was just a bad decision to remove an entire element of her game play when there was no reason to.

I was only comparing like things. Her Q is a completely new ability. Nothing about it is similar to anything she had previously. Making blind accusations makes you look silly. What did you want me to compare her new Q to? Her old one? ok.

An aoe cone that has a heal vs a long range nuke. Quite similar right?
Her new and old shield ARE similar because they are both shields
Her thethers? both are tethers.
Her ult... it's so similar it has the same name
and i just find her passive retarded, sorry.

Wan't me to redundantly compare her entire kit next?

And she's not a solid carry. Every other APC outshines her immensely. Every other support/carry is better then her. Her only redeaming factor is her Q, which doesn't even feel like it fits her kit.


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emTmyclipin2u

Senior Member

03-31-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wai Yu Dai Ling View Post
Some ideas https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...dKOUTDy3E/edit

I doubt they would do this but w/e u-u I personally liked the old Karma better it was just fun and she offered an unique experiences through all the baits and staying at low HP on purpose. And I don't think it's bad design at all, it teaches the opponent's to RESPECT what you can do at low HP, and even at low HP she can be bursted down if your time properly, being at low hp is also a risk that Karma players understand its a risk/reward passive.
seems like you put a lot of thought into this. I love the idea of w, especially the ability to take damage, but perhaps there could be a way to end the damage absorption early, such as with another press of w like you had with enemies? This would make you able to still save an ally very similarly to ally use on old kit, but the problem I see happening is that if you shield a tank and are not one yourself you possibly could "overabsorb" damage and end up killing yourself even if your ally could have taken more damage before having any problems. The q described in this kit I seem to have a problem seeing how it would work. It appears that it would be extraordinarily hard to balance. Also an idea for empowered version of it would be perhaps an enlarge area or a longer duration that it stays. I agree with you one hundred percent on her e being good where it was. only thing that isn't mentioned any where that I see is her passive. You said to keep her e the same but didn't mention anything about her passive. I personally thought her old one was good in concept, but possibly should have the values looked at/ buffed.

I like the ideas, but highly doubt that riot will use them as riot just put time into this direction instead. I wish they would take some of these ideas, but doubt that they will.


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Saint Mudknot

Senior Member

03-31-2013

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Originally Posted by twitching ferret View Post
I was only comparing like things. Her Q is a completely new ability. Nothing about it is similar to anything she had previously. Making blind accusations makes you look silly. What did you want me to compare her new Q to? Her old one? ok.

An aoe cone that has a heal vs a long range nuke. Quite similar right?
Her new and old shield ARE similar because they are both shields
Her thethers? both are tethers.
Her ult... it's so similar it has the same name
and i just find her passive retarded, sorry.

Wan't me to redundantly compare her entire kit next?

And she's not a solid carry. Every other APC outshines her immensely. Every other support/carry is better then her. Her only redeaming factor is her Q, which doesn't even feel like it fits her kit.

You forgot to mention how weak her Q is at early games. Even with Mantra, building heavy AP will still not produce as much damage.

After her rework she is totally non viable in almost all situations. She can sit back and slow enemys and shield the team, thats about it. Some support fun that sounds like right.


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RiotSchmick

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03-31-2013
2 of 28 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saint Mudknot View Post
Oh really? Riot cant see the flood of Karma UP/BAD and Zac OP threads that have been flooding GD since they launched?

Open your eyes more?
I'm trying to be helpful so feedback is heard. There's no reason to be nasty about it.


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Akias

Senior Member

03-31-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saint Mudknot View Post
You forgot to mention how weak her Q is at early games. Even with Mantra, building heavy AP will still not produce as much damage.

After her rework she is totally non viable in almost all situations. She can sit back and slow enemys and shield the team, thats about it. Some support fun that sounds like right.
I didn't forget. I didn't include her Q's because they are NOT similar to each other in any way shape or form. I was comparing like skills.


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Akias

Senior Member

03-31-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotSchmick View Post
I'm trying to be helpful so feedback is heard. There's no reason to be nasty about it.
I'm fairly certain any negative feelings aren't aimed at you personally. More at the champion design team that botched this rework, then refuses to comment on it.
Or at Riot staff as a whole for over all not responding to large, popular, well thought out threads often enough.
And if it was aimed at you, it was solely because the one red response in here had been, hey go sit in the corner, we don't want to read this ever. But dressed up nicely.


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ZapMyHeart

Senior Member

03-31-2013

New Karma's problems is the lack of consistency, in terms of damage.

What is her most consistent damage source?

Answer: Her W. That requires her to get into close range. And is easily broken. And has a long cooldown.

Her Q is unpredictable and while the 950 range is excellent, it's a skillshot that could be blocked by minions easily. If you missed, whelp, that sucks. Better wait til the cooldown comes back up before you can try again. In the meantime, you are stuck with a short range tether and a shield for utility purposes.

The problem with this Karma is that she suffers from what the old Karma had. That her 3 abilities does not stand out above the other champions. Lacking a real ultimate should automatically mean that her three other skills have to be stronger in order to make up for it. Yet, she still falls short in her three abilities.


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Auryiel

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03-31-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotSchmick View Post
I'm trying to be helpful so feedback is heard. There's no reason to be nasty about it.
And (some of us) are trying to give you feedback about your Champion Feedback forum : it looks abandoned, so there is no incentive to post there. If, in fact, Reds DO visit this forum, they need to make their presence known. Otherwise, Champ Feedback will remain unused.

Please pass this message along to your colleagues. I know you're trying to help, but so am I.


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Shasyr

Senior Member

03-31-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotSchmick View Post
I'm trying to be helpful so feedback is heard. There's no reason to be nasty about it.
Schmick, you might meant to be helpful, but to GD it didn't seem so. The forum you'd have us visit appears to be totally, utterly, dead. No red posts at all, whatsoever.

Not to mention, the first post sounded much like the infamous 'Riot Ambassador' and 'The Beard'. i.e, an excuse from some guy with a red name because no one else could be arsed to respond to the OP's very valid points.

I honestly don't think it would take much to make Karma's re-work valid and likeable. The OP hit almost everything exactly.

I just have to re-iterate how disappointing her new passive and Mantra are. Her current passive should be part of Mantra, and she should have a passive that's actually engaging instead rather than "Use abilities you'd likely use anyway, and get your ult faster".


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skippymcgee

Senior Member

03-31-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saint Mudknot View Post
Oh really? Riot cant see the flood of Karma UP/BAD and Zac OP threads that have been flooding GD since they launched?

Open your eyes more?
Not really a flood. More like a trickle of the minority trying to thump their chests.