Ashe manamune hate?

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Submortimer

Junior Member

03-27-2013

Community, I have a question. I consider myself to be a fairly good ashe player: I regularly have a high KDR, I know how to farm effectively, and I can snipe with her arrow of doom when I need to. My question is this: why does there seem to be this huge belief that Manamune isn't useful/good for her to use?

It may just be my style of play, but I have found that I regularly do much poorer in games where I try to push for a more "standard" ashe build, instead of building into a manamune early in the game. So far, I have yet to really come across a time where having the ability to spam volley mid game hasn't won my team the fight.

Thoughts on this? Am I doing it wrong, or have I just missed a key element of how she works?


For the curious:
- my runes are mana regen, armor pen, CDR, and AD quints
- Masteries are 21/3/0
- endgame build is usually muramana, bloodthirster, phantom Dancer, infinity edge, berserker greaves, and optional 6th item (generally last whisper, guardian angel, or another phantom dancer)


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Azellos

Senior Member

03-27-2013

It's because it's kinda true. The only advantage you really get from a manamune is the mana and mana regen. If your playing worse without it, it's probably because your not managing your mana well enough. Don't assume it's a great item on ashe just because you play better with it- your use of it probably just mitigates the harm done by wasting mana, meaning you don't feel the impact as much as if you don't buy it.

There just isn't a huge reason to use manamune on ashe. It's an item that gives you a lot of mana, and gives you a little ad based on the mana. It only becomes a significant investment if you buy other items with a mana component (and also it makes more sense to buy on champs who spam their abilities a lot so you can charge your tear up faster).

The thing is Ashe shouldn't be buying other mana items (you need your IE/PD/BT/whatever just to do enough damage to carry). She doesn't use abilities on a regular basis, with the exception of poking with W. That's not much, and while her Q uses up a decent chunk of mana, it shouldn't require you to get a tear just to keep using it.

Your just plain better off with other items for your ADC.


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Dpaladinx

Senior Member

03-27-2013

Manamune only works on ADCs or AD Bruisers that have a spammable skill (Ezreal, Pantheon, and Urgot). For Ashe, you're better off with the traditional ADC items like Infinity Edge and Phantom Dancer.


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Theungry

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Senior Member

03-27-2013

Ashe is good at a handful of things:
Level 1 damage combo
Ult initiation
Kiting
Farming

Manamune doesn't help with any of those things, and it doesn't make up for any of her weaknesses:
- Lack of mobility/escape
- Lack of a scaling AD steroid

The only thing is helps with is spamming W, which really you shouldn't have trouble using 3 times in a team fight in the first place.

That early 2100g could go toward something radically more useful.


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Shallow Cubes

Senior Member

03-27-2013

Disclaimer: This is off-topic, but since you posted them...

In my humble opinion, it is better to use flat armor yellows and AD reds on Ashe.

The flat armor yellows will increase your trading power with the enemy ADC. Note that, as Ashe, you probably won't win many early trades (depending also on who the supports are), but having the flat armor yellows will help you survive harass to an extent.

The AD reds will give you a good early damage boost to help last hit, since Ashe's initial damage is quite low. Additionally, from a few tests I have run, AD runes will work better than ArPen runes until your damage reaches a level where the difference becomes almost negligible. ArPen runes become more useful when your damage surpasses a certain threshold and the enemy has been stacking HP passed a certain threshold. Been messing around with a spreadsheet on this in a variety of rune combinations and item combinations.

To be fair, if you want to look to the late game, then consider keeping the ArPen runes as you plan on pumping damage, and assuming that you are facing a team that is likely to go somewhat tanky. Include BotRK in this, and shred.


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Warrrrax

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Senior Member

03-27-2013

I would like to point out that Manamune actually IS a cost-effective investment. Saying it gives "a little AD" is misleading. She gets a tear which we eat the cost of for mana management, and by the time she upgrades it, shes got at LEAST 1000 mana.
So for 1400g, she gets +20 AD, then another 20 AD for having 1k mana. 1400g for 40AD. On par with BFSword.
By the time its charged, its 60 AD for 1400g, or 60AD for the entire 2100g cost. Still efficient. Plus it has the mini-crit factor as Murumana which is beneficial.


So it's great right?! NO. No? WTF? Here is why:

When you first get Tear, this sets you back significantly. The other guy will have 1.5 Dorans over you, which is an extra 150 health, 15 dmg. Youve got a low level Volley that still has a pretty high cooldown and low damage. Spamming it isnt all that useful in lane.

Then you get murumana which gives lots of AD. However, Ashe is an ADC and really wants to rush to get 4 things:
a) Sustain, from lifesteal
b) CRIT to start setting up a 3rd dmg multiplier for lategame.
c) Enough AD to lasthit really well and harass/trade. Enough AD for the extra multipliers to be usable.
d) Extra Attack Speed which becomes useful in teamfights as another dmg multiplier.

Turns out that A and B are obtained thru huge AD items! Inf Edge and Bloodthirster. Now Blade of Ruined King which gives AS too.

The Ashe that completes an IE has 200 AD and autocrits for 500 which is pretty strong. She will then get the PD to get AS and crit as soon as possible and watch her DPS skyrocket. She will likely get a vamp scepter too for lifesteal.


The problem with murumana is that it delays three out of 4 of these things. Sure it gives fat AD. BUT, no crit, no AS, no sustain. Add this to the midgame lull when you get a tear and you can hopefully see why Ashe players avoid a Manamune.

Hope this clears it up some.


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AcornGames

Senior Member

03-27-2013

Well I just did the maths. These numbers are with no other items but Muramana.

Ashe lvl 18 +Muramana
+56 Attack Damage. ( Passives awe and +20 )
+108 Magic Damage. ( Passive Toggle with full mana )
+54 Magic Damage. ( Passive toggle at half mana )

So even at half mana youre doing an additional 110 damage with your basic attacks.

-Pros
Additional damage, mana, stats given by Passive Awe scale with AD abilities, ( Ashe only has 1 that it scales with though ) Passive Toggle adds damage to abilities & basic attacks.

-Cons
Damage is constantly being reduced as your mana lowers, there are better items for laning, its a late game item.

It's a matter of preference.

Standard adc builds focus on AA spamming, and for this there are other items with more useful passives

Youre planning on spamming your skills as often as you can (CD Runes ftw! ) and you've been winning more games with this which is always fantastic.

To do this you need a lot of mana and you need to be able to deal damage. Muramana provides a lot of both of these. and so its a viable item as far as I can see (As long as you don't lose lane presence while building it). I would optimize it by getting blue buff as often as you can to keep your mana pool high!


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Martyrofsand

Senior Member

03-27-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dpaladinx View Post
Manamune only works on ADCs or AD Bruisers that have a spammable skill (Ezreal, Pantheon, and Urgot). For Ashe, you're better off with the traditional ADC items like Infinity Edge and Phantom Dancer.



Ashe's Q will stacks manamune better than any of those champs.


That said it's still a trash item on her.


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Warrrrax

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Senior Member

03-28-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by JosephCrossheart View Post
Well I just did the maths. !
Dude, did you bother to read ANYTHING that anyone else posted at all? ADCs have THREE damage stats...AD, AS, and CRIT. Three things multiplied together are always going to be better than focusing on two.

She needs lifesteal for sustain, crit, AS as well as AD. Manamune severely slows down getting any of the first 3, even though it is technically a decent item.

Quote:
Ashe's Q will stacks manamune better than any of those champs.

That said it's still a trash item on her.
I dont think toggles work to charge tear anymore. And its NOT a trash item on her, as I showed through math. Its simply not ideal for her needs. It IS workable though suboptimal.


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Rakaydos

Senior Member

03-28-2013

Hmm.. now I want to try Muramana/BORK/FH/Runaans/Wits end on Ashe.

Multi slow, multi % proc, and tanky with % lifesteal.


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