Why can ADCs have good early games and late games?

First Riot Post
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Lycaeus

Senior Member

03-25-2013

You know how you counter an ADC and support?

With your own adc and support.


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Ser Robin

Senior Member

03-25-2013

Phreak, you just said that ranged AD carries scale hardest with gold and that they are also the best type of champion for taking down a turret. Turrets give gold, a lot of gold.

That's part of the problem.

Not only that, why do ranged carries get all these options to protect themselves?

Fiora can block 1 auto attack. Yi can stand still or use his steroid to run away (ranged carries have escapes in another ability)

Another part of the problem is Blade of the Ruined King. You don't have to peel for carries anymore, they can do it themselves through their overloaded kits red buff and active malphite q on an item.


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Drediviros

Senior Member

03-25-2013

hash vs. phreak

/popcorn


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Kaolla

Senior Member

03-25-2013

hashinshin rants are always about how the top laner HE plays somehow gets shat on by whatever char he got shat on by this week

someone probably took vayne top and crushed his rumble or whatever he was playing and so he's crying about ADcarries...


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bierfaust

Senior Member

03-25-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phreak View Post
I really can't understand anything Hashinshin is trying to say.



People pair up ranged ADcarries in a duo lane because they scale hardest with gold, and not quite as hard with level: Funnel minion farm, but don't worry about shared exp. Why would you run Malphite in a duo lane? He actually needs levels for the HP/Armor/MR per level stats, as well as cooldown on ultimate way more than Graves does. And the same holds true for melee ADCarries, or melee anything. They actually rely on levels quite a bit: The 80-100 HP per level that melee champions gain is crucial for their performance in game overall. They also need to hit critical levels earlier. Which ultimate are you more worried about getting: Unstoppable Force, or Collateral Damage?

Let's also think about what types of champions we're using, and the other reason people 1v2: They're killing turrets. Who's really good at killing turrets? Ranged people with a bunch of +AD from runes and a Doran's Blade? The Shen who’s bringing a bunch of tank runes? Or maybe the mage with a bunch of Magic Penetration and no bonus attack speed? Who's better at poking someone down underneath their turret without getting counter-attacked by the turret? Ranged champions, or melee ones?

So sure, yes, people with +28 Attack Damage at level 1 with 550 range are good at harassing people when they've got a buddy bringing in crowd control to stop counter-attacks.

Now, as for the Malphite point, this is honestly just willful ignorance. Let’s take a closer look at some actual changes. First, the cooldown has been progressively getting lower on Ground Slam and it’s gained an AP ratio. This means you actually have more potential for damage, and more carry potential since you’ll be using Ground Slam more often. But you know, just pick one line out of four in the patch notes, and suddenly it’s a nerf! Second, let’s recall that champions like Graves/Ezreal, rare ADCarries who are known for their early games and strong abilities had their base attack speeds nerfed to push them slightly away from that late-game carry spot, and make more room for champions like Vayne who do have weak lanes and are late-game carries.



Well, as I wrote above, that’s not the reason at all, but let’s explore this lane for a bit anyway.

Fiora/Lulu will lose to MF/Lulu. So what? Lulu has a suite of crowd control, poke, and shields. Unsurprisingly, she’s really good against melee champions. But Fiora vs. Miss Fortune 1v1? Are you serious? Hashinshin, I will happily 1v1 you with Fiora vs. MF. But yeah, if you bring an anti-melee support, then melees tend to under-perform against them.

I'm actually curious what ADCarry actually has a "good" early game. Graves has enough innate tankiness and burst to survive top lane, but he was literally designed to be half-bruiser and function in melee range. Vayne and Ezreal can theoretically survive up there by kiting away from everything, but with one slip up, they just die to Renekton or Jax. And then there's a couple specific match-ups like Caitlyn vs. Orianna mid, built to abuse a range and armor disadvantage. So I guess he could cherry-pick a few examples, but... Really how often are you seeing 2-3 AD Carries in competitive?

So again, what's this good early game? And what point is even being made here? Ranged AD is good at killing turrets.

The second point is just awkward, though.


Right.

I think you missed hashinshin's point entirely. What he means is that the usual ADC+support has gone from a lane that was created out of necessity for survival, to a harass/kill lane that has no real counter play. Most people will say "put your carry bot then", that's stupid. Why should mirror matchups be forced just because the game isn't balanced properly to allow multiple setups to function in the same space?

His main point was that it has completely nullified the point of melee carries. Because a ranged carry is supposed to have a weak early game (low hp, low ms, almost no defensive abilities and low starting damage output) in exchange or as a trade off for having a very strong late game. (High gold/item scaling, supposed to have the 2nd highest damage output combined with range)

Problem is, they now have a strong early game as well, because they can harass should they decide to and it actually hurts, far more than it ever should because of the nature of their role.
Now it's fine if they choose this setup as the way they intended for the game to go, and as part of that they should delay some of that build up power if not forsake some of it entirely. (Because that is fair, they can't have both strong harass early game and high consistent damage output late game as well as being ranged)

On the flip-side, melee carry's are supposed to hit hard early game as a trade off for having to get close in order for them to even attempt to hit their enemy. But what Hashinshin is getting at is that there is no chance for melee carry's to even attempt to function in a paired lane (support+carry for example) because the ranged carry's now hit harder than melee do, not to mention that melee might take some hits from the support as well, or they may not even get in range and take a bunch of damage and get nothing in return.

That isn't always the players fault. Because if you opponents hit that hard, there is no point in even trying, which removes them as a viable choice for a pairs lane and pretty much removes most of them that cant solo top from even being a possible choice in the game at all.

It boils down to this:
Ranged ADC are hitting too hard and harassing too well for an archetype that should have low damage output that builds up overtime based on items and gold collected. Slap a support in there with them and they are actually becoming a threat and can be placed in any lane that the team wants to harass to a boring stale non threatening lane. (this should never happen as it goes against the very nature of the role they were chosen for)

Melee carry's should be hitting harder (or ranged hitting for less) as a trade off for having to "close the gap" as most champions don't have both an engage and a disengage that isn't the same spell. Because of the power for the ranged carry+support there is no room for melee carry's in the game, which is also wrong as it eliminates even more choices for setups.


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Lloyd0

Senior Member

03-25-2013

I think instead of asking riot to fix or nerf things people themselves should try and come up with their own ideas to counter this. The game is designed to reward creativity...the community just does not. Id also like point out early ward placement can give a heads up about 2v1 lanes...and that ppl arent stuck there. If you are seriously worried about it grab teleport and head to your ADC's lane...help them with a gank let them back and head to your lane to force a 2v2. If you are being zoned by a ranged champ and not getting farm you either have to learn to cope with it or not let them do it to you. Its not like there are prison bars formed around you and after 1:30 hits you are locked in lane...granted some of your lanes might loose CS during a swap back but in some situations its better than have one of your champs shut out. If they follow for the swap then they loose just as much


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Phreak

Shoutcaster

03-25-2013
5 of 15 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by hashinshin View Post
(And defame riot design? I make posts because, and let me go on quote here, "you doing things stupid, yo." Before BotRK was released I left like a 2 page comment telling Xyph how insanity this item was/still is. It got pretty ignored. So whats next? Blog post time. I'm not sitting here like sniddley whiplash going "nyaaa time to attack Riot and what will I do this week nyaaa!" And the BotRK thing is just an example. The massive shift to everyone getting %HP damage is another example. I can't do your guys work for you, I don't get paid, but I can tell you guys you're doing things stupid yo.)

And if I really was always off basis and wrong? I'd get banned for being such an ******* by now.
I mean, you are kind of an *******, let's be fair.

But here's the big fallacy you tend to fall into, and why you draw the same one on yourself:

1. You assume intent. "Riot at some point decided though that melee = early game, and range = late game" is rather awkward and uninformed.

Or there's the, "Pros put ADCarry/Support into 2v1 because "It's teh best!!!!!!!!11111". Really? Do you have a citation? Did Scarra tell you that? Please, tell me what the pros are thinking about their lane assignments so that it suits your purposes when you don't have a single source.

2. You're unreliable / prone to unbelievable hyperbole. I can't take you seriously because you cherry-pick ludicrous examples. You bring up Malphite's patch notes.... Well no, you bring up only one of them, and neglect to state that the Armor ratio nerf was coupled with a Cooldown reduction and an added AP ratio.

They also aren't even true half the time. You say, out of thin air, that "While Malphite has seen a power DECREASE since release old ADCs like Ashe and Tristana have seen MONSTEROUS levels of power increase since launch."

Let's be real here. First, here's a link to all the changes that have happened to Ashe: http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Ashe/Background . Now, we've removed Green Elixir, heavily nerfed Attack Speed, and nerfed Last Whisper at least 5 times. Does anyone remember the old IE/LW from preseason/Season One? **** was ridiculous. If you actually believe ADCarries have been buffed, then you're misinformed. If you're just making stuff up, then you should find another hobby.

So because of this. Because I would normally consider you a well-informed and intelligent poster, when I see posts like this, I have to think about your intent. You can't truly believe this. So... you're making stuff up to yell at Riot? It's the conclusion I draw.


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Icarus Penna

Senior Member

03-25-2013

Talking about adc being powerful early game :

1v1 situation : we all know bruisers beat adc
5v5 situation : which is stronger lvl 1 invade, jax jarvan nasus irelia blitz OR jax karth lulu cait mao?

adc being powerful late game is true, but assassin kind of countering that, zed and kha is pretty popular nowadays.


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JunkRamen

Senior Member

03-25-2013

Oh and here I thought hashinshin was just pushing our buttons when he said that Ashe has gotten stronger over time. Can someone really say this with a straight face?


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Arctic Bro

Member

03-25-2013

Phreak pls do an ARAM with community i'm sure people would love playing with you at this hour