Journey Into The Freljord II: The Winterís Claw

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kitae

Lead Designer

03-22-2013
12 of 14 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by PrinceOfTheCrows View Post
The thing with the JoJ is we dont now how long ago it was in the world of Runeterra that it was writing.So for all we now why at first people where happy with Queen Ashe peace but as time goes on they may not have been as happy with the changes as they once thought.

So tell we get a timeline. We cant really say if the lore doesn't contradict each other.All so I dont trust Lissandra that much. I just find it weird that the last Ice Dervish was found dead in her quarters. Yes I now it was said that the cause of death to be natural but after watch NCIS so much I learn that natural is not all was that natural.
Great observation. We would like to release an official timeline at some point. Until then, you can assume about two years has passed since the Freljord events described in the JOJ and Quinn's journey to the Freljord.


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kitae

Lead Designer

03-22-2013
13 of 14 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pal2002 View Post
The JoJ was not written as ancient history, it was written as a newspaper of the present - so about ~2 years ago Ashe became Queen if Valoran runs on our time. But how many League players actually know that much about the lore?

Riot is not writing this as a continuation of JoJ, the department that did that is disbanded and the writers long gone. This is retcon, the old lore is just being discarded aside for whatever new ones they're about to write.

It's bad that they already very rarely make new lore, but why destroy the lore that's already been written?
Great care has been taken to build this story on the Freljord lore as represented in the JoJ. We will occasionally retcon things but we don't do so casually.

If you read all new lore releases with the assumption we have retconned, you're going to see retcons everywhere. If you read new lore releases with the assumption we do our best to avoid retcon, you'll see how the story continues. A lot of it comes down to your attitude when you read the lore, I encourage you to look for the continued story and discuss the continuing story with other players.


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Melancholy Exile

Senior Member

03-22-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Melancholy Exile View Post
She needed the barbarians to support her regime, she hides behind the power of the Institute of War and her people only enjoy the lives they do because they aren't content with what Freljord offers them. Sejuani may be barbaric, and unapologetically so, but she would have Freljord stand by itself, rather than bowing at the feet of those beyond its borders.
Yes, I clearly support Ashe. (The italics are to convey sarcasm)

My point was that Ashe has made Freljord reliant on outside parties to keep order, rather than maintaining its place as an self-sufficient state. She went to the League to curry support and she turned to the barbarians to secure her place in power, all to create an atmosphere wherein her own political views and ideas for Freljord's future could flourish unopposed. She has fundamentally changed Freljord's direction by introducing outside parties and letting them play major roles in determining the identity of the city state, rather than leaving its future and culture in the hands of its people. She's sold-out massively and given up much of what Freljord was.

As for your points about Sejuani's actions:

Why would Sejuani have sought open war with an allegiance of the other two greater tribes, much less engaged them after Ashe could call upon the numbers of the barbarian peoples? You're trying to pass off her avoiding suicidal conflict as some sort of benevolent action on her part.

The point about population was pretty straightforward. The barbarian's migration into Freljord involved a moment of numbers "dwarf[ing] that of all three tribes combined" and many of those chose to settle in Avarosan territory. With Freljord already know for its scarce resources, it's hardly a stretch to realise how problematic that might prove in years to come.


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Deafiler

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Senior Member

03-22-2013

When exactly did culture start being more important than progress? Especially when you basically live in the devil's armpit. Sejuani doesn't want to rule, she wants to dominate by force, whereas Ashe wants to unify (and the best way to do that is to start making powerful allies). Which one do you think is better for Freljord: A peaceful resolution to centuries of conflict, or a final all-out war to decide on the queen (leaving them severely weakened and easily taken over by Noxus or Zaun)?


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Melancholy Exile

Senior Member

03-22-2013

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Originally Posted by Deafiler View Post
When exactly did culture start being more important than progress? Especially when you basically live in the devil's armpit. Sejuani doesn't want to rule, she wants to dominate by force, whereas Ashe wants to unify (and the best way to do that is to start making powerful allies). Which one do you think is better for Freljord: A peaceful resolution to centuries of conflict, or a final all-out war to decide on the queen (leaving them severely weakened and easily taken over by Noxus or Zaun)?
Oh, quite. Ashe is much better for Freljord and has done a very sound job indeed. (This genuinely isn't sarcasm this time)

Sejuani comes from the far-flung corners of 'the devil's armpit' and has lived in a culture that has been so obsessed with surviving that moving forward hadn't even touched their agenda until the stars marked their latest princess as the one to unite the tribes. In Ashe she sees someone who has done everything in their power to tear down the old ways and make Freljord less ... Freljordian. Rather than relying on demonstrations of personal strength to make a point and prove your worthiness, she turned to outsiders and looked to prop up her regime on strength that was not her own. She indebted

Sejuani would be a poor leader in Valoran's current political climate, and ill-suited to manage Freljord in its new change in direction, but that doesn't mean that I can't personally prefer her little myth and support her as the chosen one looking to tear down the cowardly bureaucrat who currently holds power.


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Kyryck

Senior Member

03-22-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by kitae View Post
Great care has been taken to build this story on the Freljord lore as represented in the JoJ. We will occasionally retcon things but we don't do so casually.

If you read all new lore releases with the assumption we have retconned, you're going to see retcons everywhere. If you read new lore releases with the assumption we do our best to avoid retcon, you'll see how the story continues. A lot of it comes down to your attitude when you read the lore, I encourage you to look for the continued story and discuss the continuing story with other players.
This is a silly statement. You seem to be assuming that people don't know what a "retcon" is with regards to lore/writing.

The story progressing or being elaborated on is an entirely different concept than the writers/designers retconning something.

I would certainly hope that people understand what a retcon is before they say one has been done. But claiming that if you're looking for retcons that you'll see them everywhere is not right. Something either is or is not a retcon, there's no real mystery when you guys change a backstory to something different.

Please note, I am not as 'up' on the lore as others, so I don't really know if there have been retcons or not. I simply wanted to point out that retcons aren't hard to spot. They're incredibly obvious unless the writer is working on some obscure point that is never actually brought to light. I don't much care about the lore any longer because it's been dead for so long with no real attempts to resuscitate it beyond little things like this that would take a day's worth of work to do.

I mean, I suspect that I understand the whys of the lore dying. You guys simply do not have a dedicated writing department with access to the funds and resources to make effective lore a reality. That hurts, because as a writer I can recognize when there is an intellectual property that is prime for development (and League of Legends could make you heaps of money and generate loads of interest if you guys as a company were actually dedicated to developing lore), but I'm over that now. You guys are paying for pro teams, their houses, prizes for tournaments, all the other business costs, etc. The people in charge have obviously designated the lore as a low priority and don't want to give the capital to make a fully-fleshed out lore a reality. Oh well. A shame, but that's reality. That's why FPS shooters are more popular than in depth strategy games I suppose; people (and the game companies) simply don't care about developing the lore behind things when they can make immediate money with other areas of focus.


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Argent Heretic

Senior Member

03-22-2013

I don't understand what is going on with the lore. Someone please elaborate


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Thessalonike

Senior Member

03-22-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Melancholy Exile View Post
Yes, I clearly support Ashe. (The italics are to convey sarcasm)

My point was that Ashe has made Freljord reliant on outside parties to keep order, rather than maintaining its place as an self-sufficient state. She went to the League to curry support and she turned to the barbarians to secure her place in power, all to create an atmosphere wherein her own political views and ideas for Freljord's future could flourish unopposed. She has fundamentally changed Freljord's direction by introducing outside parties and letting them play major roles in determining the identity of the city state, rather than leaving its future and culture in the hands of its people. She's sold-out massively and given up much of what Freljord was.

As for your points about Sejuani's actions:

Why would Sejuani have sought open war with an allegiance of the other two greater tribes, much less engaged them after Ashe could call upon the numbers of the barbarian peoples? You're trying to pass off her avoiding suicidal conflict as some sort of benevolent action on her part.

The point about population was pretty straightforward. The barbarian's migration into Freljord involved a moment of numbers "dwarf[ing] that of all three tribes combined" and many of those chose to settle in Avarosan territory. With Freljord already know for its scarce resources, it's hardly a stretch to realise how problematic that might prove in years to come.
She never sought open war she was ready to face the leaders of the other tribes, she followed Ashe not het tribe to the League of Legends.

Early when the rumors about Ashe and Tryndamere were just that and before they killed Mauvole (fun assumption of course) why didn't Sejuani just take over The Tribe of the Frost Archer? I believe it is because she knows being a brutal barbarian destroyer is not going prove herself as the rightful ruler.

Suicidal conflict? No, no, no. Sejuani believes she is ready to face the leaders and if she believed so strongly and was so merciless why not take an opportunity of lowered guard. She didn't do that either, because she must defeat Ashe completely and unquestionably.

When it talks about leading her people out and conquering lands I believe in this case it would be much like an army backing the combatants in case of cheating. The land comes with defeating Ashe or whichever Dervish isn't poisoned.

(opinion on lore issue or error in reporter terms) I doubt the barbarians actually "migrated" since 1) no food supply to migrate toward. 2) as a now city state with a potential hostile Demacia to the SW and Noxus to the SE why would they totally abandon northern Valoran.

That makes zero sense and doubtful it actually played out as a complete abandonment of the north by the barbarians into Freljord.
Like you said Freljord has limited resources it doesn't work as a migration or strategically. Tryndamere isn't going to let Noxus or Zuan just start taking his territory, no way.

(Yes it says migration but it can not be as an entirety of the barbarian tribes. It simple doesn't work, my only defense for this would be the lore needs an errata page)


Edit: Melancholy Exile, this is quite fun, I will continue to defend Sejuani as the victim as best I can... it provokes creative thought.

I may need help from Riot on the term "migration" though or a clarification that it wasn't the entirety of the barbarian tribes. It makes less sense than a conspiracy theory that Princess Mauvole was taken out.


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kitae

Lead Designer

03-22-2013
14 of 14 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyryck View Post
I would certainly hope that people understand what a retcon is before they say one has been done. But claiming that if you're looking for retcons that you'll see them everywhere is not right. Something either is or is not a retcon, there's no real mystery when you guys change a backstory to something different.
So here is what generally happens.

[Lore A] is written and is followed up by [Lore B]

A player who is looking for retcons says, Lore B is inconsistent with Lore A, accordingly inferring that Lore A has been retconned. For example, the satating that Sejuani seems too powerful in the new Quinn journals, and thus that her previous status of being a relatively weak player in the Freljord has been implicitly retconned.

A players who is not looking for retcons, infers the chain of events that connect [Lore A] to [Lore B]. For example, a series of moves by Sejuani resulting in increased power, resulting in the Quinn lore being an accurate representation of her power while maintaining consistency with earlier lore.

A much more clear retcon would be Quinn saying "I saw Sejuani, she was riding her Alligator mount RenektonBot who is the only mount she has ever been known to ride". At that point you could reasonably assume we had retconned Bristle. This would never happen. I freaking love Bristle. I have a Bristle pillow. My first child will be named Bristle. But, you get the point.


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Vijuani

Junior Member

03-22-2013

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Originally Posted by kitae View Post

I freaking love Bristle. I have a Bristle pillow. My first child will be named Bristle. But, you get the point.
This pleases me...