So, about that Karma leak...

First Riot Post
Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

DemiluniS

Senior Member

03-18-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Severian NA View Post
Huh.

Certainly not as bad as I feared, but I will miss the cone percentage heal. The changes to E and W does compensate for that, and I can see how they might even be better in general. Still, W could be a bit more dynamic. Without the numbers it is impossible to form a real impression of her, so I can't really say what I think.

Also, I can see from the responses made by Riot that there is more depth to this kit than I at first thougth. It does seem a bit one-dimensional on the surface, but I hope I will be pleasantly suprised.

I can see that there has been a real drive to keep what I/we love about Karma's gameplay, and I appreciate that greatly. It makes it easier to swallow what is lost or lessened. Thank you! I can't overstate that.

-------

Yet. It really suprises me, how galling the loss of her old passive is. I knew it would be a blow, but it is like you removed a piece of her soul. Karma felt unique and her passive had a large part in that. I didn't fully realize how much it mattered it seems.

Xelnath speaks very strongly about how this passive is an anathema to the vision :P I appreciate that honesty and realize that indicates it wasn't just removed on a whim (which I also appreciate). As a LoL player I'm a noob. I am Bronze IV. My words don't carry much weight. Still, I'm going to call you out on a few things, Xelnath.

I agree, a kit encouraging you to be low HP is a bad thing. The times the passive made me feel like I should be low HP wasn't a good feeling. It just feels wrong, as you say. But that was a minor hitch when I started learning her. I quickly came to my senses. The passive is rarely worth being low HP. Of course, I consider the fact that I benefit from low health, but it is a far stretch from damning me to forever live on the edge to exploit my passive. I try to heal up whenever I can.

Was I wrong? Should I have taken turret hits to maximise my AP? Is her passive really forcing you to play at low hp? Did I play her poorly if I didn't aim to be at least half dead most of the time?

And about the ranged caster thing, I won't presume to dictate how you design your game. I am a bit suprised that you feel so strongly about it though. I didn't feel like I was a ranged troll because of that passive. If I was low HP, I usually died if something looked my way and my cooldowns were up or I made a mistake, reacted too slow, etc. If I had Tryndamere on my ass, I was screwed no matter what I did. I just melted if the gear was somewhat even. Many melee were scary, but I still have nightmares about him >.<

Yes, I see that it is problematic in general, but I can't see how it is an absolute nono. Taking a typical melee thing and putting it on a caster type really makes a mark, and Karma is perfect for this. Are you really aiming to turn her into a squishy mage in every respect? Can't a mage have some sort of strength boost when the straits are dire? Are you sure you're not overdoing the streamlining? Let her be the exception *.*

Right you are, I feel very strongly about this. It is a major change to what makes Karma fun, what makes her Karma. I have had enough of those :P Karma is a champion with an exceptional inner strength. Was that removed from her concept? Is she just a spiritual power mage now?
And making her inner flame manifest like this new Q... >.< Seriously. That is Brands inner flame, more like :P I wish you'd rename that ability...
But I digress.

I realize that this has been said time and time again, but it is vital. I feel you are making a huge mistake in removing this passive. When I play other characters with shields and/or heals, they do the same thing, dying or not. Karma felt different. As your situation worsened, she was empowered. It bolstered your spirit when you needed it the most. That did not change the fact that your situation was deteriorating. It was not a "Yay, I'm dying!" kind of thing. It gave me hope and determination when I had to face unfavourable odds. It is such an important part of the appeal Karma has, that I implore you to reconsider, or to figure out some other way of giving her a tangible manifestation of indominable will in the face of adversity. If you don't like this way for whatever reason, I want to retain that part of her.


So. I don't want a mechanic that makes me value low hp over full hp. That would not be fun at all. What I don't get is why she can't have an edge as her situation grows more desperate. If this old passive wasn't doing this in a good way, is it impossible, or bad design, to figure out a different way? Pretty please?

Please give me your thoughts if you can. @Xelnath @Scarizard @Morello
finally a constructive feedback from a karma player, that's what I waited for, you brought real evidence about what you liked about her kit and I respect you for that, even tho I don't fully agree with you about her passive because I think her new W compensates it pretty much, you can turn a tower dive into a kill easily, you going to punish your enemies for attacking you, I think that's a good replacement for her old passive. I'm not a karma fan, but I really appreciate the effort Riot put into her and I think we all should firstly try her out instead of judging her changes right away, you did it in the rightway, upvote for you


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Needles K

Senior Member

03-18-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coldmanj View Post
im going to miss her heal. but going to love tethers new ability.
Then you should try Nocturne or LeBlanc — they have better versions of the same ability. Nocturne's is better because the CC at the end is a fear instead of a root, and LeBlanc's is better because it slows the target for the whole tether duration and then roots them like Karma's. (This isn't to say it's a bad ability. I think Nocturne's fear is a severely underappreciated aspect of his kit, and a root is still good CC even in lieu of a fear. But I'm going to keep harping on the "Karma's new skill set is a mish-mash of nerfed versions of other characters" point until it ain't true anymore.)


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

smasher502

Junior Member

03-18-2013

Well cant say that i really liked karma in the first place, this new recreation of this character may be for the best. On top of that, theres a free skin? Can you say winning?


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

DemiluniS

Senior Member

03-18-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Needles K View Post
Then you should try Nocturne or LeBlanc they have better versions of the same ability. Nocturne's is better because the CC at the end is a fear instead of a root, and LeBlanc's is better because it slows the target for the whole tether duration and then roots them like Karma's. (This isn't to say it's a bad ability. I think Nocturne's fear is a severely underappreciated aspect of his kit, and a root is still good CC even in lieu of a fear. But I'm going to keep harping on the "Karma's new skill set is a mish-mash of nerfed versions of other characters" point until it ain't true anymore.)
fear is not a better cc than root, and leblanc got a skillshot which is a huge disadvantage


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Needles K

Senior Member

03-18-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by DemiluniS View Post
I think we all should firstly try her out instead of judging her changes right away
Well, Riot aren't offering us that option, are they? If I don't get to say she sounds annoyingly bland, why should other people get to say she sounds good without playing her?


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Needles K

Senior Member

03-18-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by DemiluniS View Post
fear is not a better cc than root
One inhibits movement but allows the enemy to keep killing you. The other completely stops them from doing anything. In what situation would you rather have a root than a fear? The fact that they run around randomly when feared is a bit annoying, but at the end of the day, one shuts down the enemy and the other does not.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

DemiluniS

Senior Member

03-18-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Needles K View Post
Well, Riot aren't offering us that option, are they? If I don't get to say she sounds annoyingly bland, why should other people get to say she sounds good without playing her?
patience summoner, you have a good counter argument, but the difference is her new kit looks cool on paper, and i'm not really judging, i'm just assuming she'll be better because I don't think Riot put that much effort to keep her in the state she's now. mostly of the people who criticize her new kit are looking only and the things that got removed from it and assuming she's bad without focusing on the tradeoffs


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

NoneLikeRob

Senior Member

03-18-2013

This is gonna be so freakin' cool! I can't wait for it to go live.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

BestBilbo

Senior Member

03-18-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by DemiluniS View Post
finally a constructive feedback from a karma player, that's what I waited for, you brought real evidence about what you liked about her kit and I respect you for that, even tho I don't fully agree with you about her passive because I think her new W compensates it pretty much, you can turn a tower dive into a kill easily, you going to punish your enemies for attacking you, I think that's a good replacement for her old passive. I'm not a karma fan, but I really appreciate the effort Riot put into her and I think we all should firstly try her out instead of judging her changes right away, you did it in the rightway, upvote for you
It's just about 'what people like' and would've like to see in her new Rework - Riot should've focused in making her as good as she can be design-wise, which is a character that has counterplay, is thematically tied and is readable.

They haven't delivered on that at all, I can explain if you want, I've done multiple times in this thread on a constructive level as well - it's not about the cone heal or a shield, they were unreadable abilities that had to go.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

FauxMustache

Member

03-18-2013

I don't think taking away her ability to heal allies, even if it did require mantra, is going to make her a better support. i feel that they've moved her out of support into mid like lux. you hardly see lux as a support even though that was one of her intended roles. I do love the over haul of her other abilities and the visual/story upgrade as well. just not the q transformation.