Let's talk about Champ Select

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Bolshevik Muppet

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Senior Member

03-17-2013

The best ideas I've seen in this thread involve adding one more lobby to the que, and while I understand that ease of getting into game is important, I still don't see why this couldn't work

I think a pregame lobby where players are essentially dumped into a team chatroom and allowed to discuss champion selection and composition for a minute or so before being presented with any kind of picks/bans would solve a lot of problems, especially if they are not given any information as to pick order

I think a large flaw in the current matchmaking system is that by having team communication occurring at the same time as picking, you inherently give some players more power over the lobby
if you're first pick, you can choose to ignore any requests made by your teammates, and pick/ban whoever you see fit, the rest just have to deal with it

In a preliminary "round table" sort of discussion, players may be more inclined to listen to each other, as everyone will be on equal footing, no more "screw you, I'm first pick"

Granted, I'm sure there's flaws I don't see yet, and nothing would stop someone from reverting to toxicity once champ select starts, but I think being able to iron out the kinks in your pregame plan before you've got 30 seconds to click on something might help a LOT

In turn, the actual champion select timer could be reduced by a bit, to help compensate for the time spent in the pre-lobby

In addition, each player could be given x number of tickets (cause I have no idea what'd be a good number) wherein they could use said tickets to dodge, but only in the pre-lobby

That way, if you get into a pre-lobby, and someone is clearly already going to be a pain, you aren't penalized as harshly, gives people room to avoid the worst of the toxic players, while retaining the penalties for dodging once champ select actually starts

Overall, getting 5 complete strangers to cooperate via the internet is difficult enough, the additional time constraints and stress of pick/ban occurring at the same time as strategizing only adds unnecessary layers of complication, give people a chance to talk first


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Mirth The Bard

Member

03-17-2013

1. Vote kick should be a thing. It should be 3/5 vote(or else no one duo queued could get kicked). This system is entirely fair as it forces the person trolling or choosing in a manner disrespectful to his team to suffer point loss and time penalty, rather then forcing any of the others to dodge and lose points and time or to suffer through a game with a troll.

2. I feel like this idea is the best and has to be implemented in some way soon. If WoW dungeon finder was implemented as a way to queue in League, it would almost entirely eliminate the problem of arguments early and someone needing to be kicked.

3. I don't know about this one. Looking at it fairly for Riot's perspective as well, it would cause a drop in many players that get stuck in there. It's a tough argument for or against it, there's a lot of reasons it would be good for, but many for against too.

However I fully agree on the first and second options being implemented.


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Maykind

Member

03-17-2013

Well, i think the solution to this problem is not that hard. Why dont riot give us an option whether players want a pick order or call order. If 3 or more than 3 ppl want pick order then the game will state that it is a pick, and if it is a call then just call accordingly.


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Lyte

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Lead Social Systems Designer

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03-17-2013
53 of 55 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brodhi View Post
Pick order will always be a better indication of skill than call order. I am unsure of how it is currently, but in Ranked beforehand the highest ELO player was at the top going down to the lowest. Therefore, that top person is the most skilled person on the team, and as such should have priority with the position he is most skilled at. Human nature, as previously stated in this thread, is going to kick in and you are going to say, "well damn, I am probably better than him at mid." but in reality he is already proven to be better at you at this game simply by being higher ELO.

Call Order was made up because Riot did not enforce the philosophy of "highest ELO = highest skill" even though that is what the entire point of "ELO" is for. I am assuming the idea shifted so that highest MMR is now at the top (because I've been above Silver 1/2's as Silver 3 before), which is still indicative of the fact you have a higher skill level than everyone below you.

Like it or not, there are always going to be people better than you at this game, and it isn't their responsibility to let you whine and ***** so you get to play the role you "called" but rather it is your responsibility to understand that you are not as good as them and understand that you should allow them the lane/champ/whatever they are skilled with.
The problem with this is that in the vast majority of games, 1st and 5th pick are differentiated by 1 game's worth of MMR. In other words, if you are 5th pick and won 1 or 2 more games, you would have been 1st pick that game.

Although the 1st pick does have the highest MMR for that particular lobby, it's not statistical support that he's the best player in the lobby.


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Zerglinator

Senior Member

03-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyte View Post
The problem with this is that in the vast majority of games, 1st and 5th pick are differentiated by 1 game's worth of MMR. In other words, if you are 5th pick and won 1 or 2 more games, you would have been 1st pick that game.

Although the 1st pick does have the highest MMR for that particular lobby, it's not statistical support that he's the best player in the lobby.
I've had a number of times where I'm First Pick, then someone dodges. I get a new Champion Select, and I'm last pick. Or fourth pick.

Sometimes I wish I could choose to have lower MMR teammates just so I get the champs I actually want...for once.


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sirderpzalot123

Junior Member

03-17-2013

Add a mute button in the champion select. People can call lanes but it wont make a difference people will pick what they want. I have to ignore everyone when the game starts anyway, because of all the negativity. Give us the option to mute people in champ select if they start out being negative.


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YoloHaxor

Junior Member

03-17-2013

Hmm Add unique supports other than the Shield knock up and heal supports and bring something new like a support based on elements that creates Aoe affects?


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StompWhomp

Junior Member

03-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyte View Post
The problem with this is that in the vast majority of games, 1st and 5th pick are differentiated by 1 game's worth of MMR. In other words, if you are 5th pick and won 1 or 2 more games, you would have been 1st pick that game.

Although the 1st pick does have the highest MMR for that particular lobby, it's not statistical support that he's the best player in the lobby.
It also has nothing to do with positions - someone who is a good jungler might have a game where they played ADC, which they are not as familiar with, and lost, even though their jungling with X, Y and Z champions is head and shoulders above the rest of their potential champion selection and position combinations.

When you hear people talk about pros playing something like Anivia from level 10 to Diamond, do you really think they're going to be just as good if they have to play Taric for a game? Hell no!


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MechanicalPirate

Member

03-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyte View Post
We want to take some time today to talk about Champion Select.

1) What are the problems?
2) What are some potential solutions?

The player behavior team has been running research on Champ Select and we agree that Champ Select is currently not a great environment and does not set teams up for success. We’ve all experienced Champ Selects that have erupted in arguments and had that sinking feeling that the game is lost before it even started. In saying this, there are plenty of Champ Select lobbies that are awesome and being positive and cooperative in every lobby does help; however, being positive by itself will not solve the problems in Champ Select and we don’t expect it to.

Solving player behavior problems in League of Legends requires collaboration between us and players and we haven’t done our part in Champ Select yet. As you can imagine, the problems (and any potential solutions) are complicated.

Something we’re seeing in our research is the influence of context.

But you know what?

This player's behavior isn’t toxic. He’s just like any one of us--we all have our bad days.

---

Let’s break down this scenario into some of the problems that we’d like to solve in Champ Select:

1) Real-Life Context | This scenario really illustrates how context outside the game can influence behavior inside the game. Traditionally, game studios don’t design or solve for context. Or can they?

2) In-Game Context | This scenario illustrates the conflict between Pick Order and Call Order. When there are literally no guidelines, at best, half of the players believe in Pick Order and half believe in Call Order—we’ve created a situation where conflicts are expected rather than rare.

3) Time Pressure | From psychology, we know that time pressure sometimes twists context in hostile ways. Players in Champ Select are effectively trying to negotiate with each other over individual goals (i.e, what role I want to play this game) that overlap with team goals (i.e, given this set of teammates, what’s the best strategy for us to win?). Studies suggest that throwing time pressure in there is like adding fuel to the fire—the end result is more disagreements and lower quality of negotiations.

4) Cognitive Biases | Hopefully davin will talk more about this, but people show cognitive bias in many ways. For example, many of us enter Champ Select thinking we are the best at whatever role we want to play—this is statistically impossible; however, there’s no reason to trust any of the strangers in the lobby. This really isn’t the players’ fault, it’s simply being human.

These are some major problems with Champ Select that we’ve identified in our research. So what’s next? A lot of players have suggested the following:

1) Vote Kick | Players want the ability to vote kick toxic players from Champ Select.
2) WoW Dungeon Finder | Players want the ability to queue up for a particular role like “Healer” and “DPS” and placed into a Champ Select with a team
3) Prisoner’s Island | Players want matchmaking to pair toxic players with toxic players, and positive players with positive players.

What are some pros and cons to these ideas? Would they work for League?
With what i've experienced, the main problem is players fighting over roles (mostly top and mid). Then because players have different opinions of how the pick order/call order should work, champ picks could end up being picked in a manner that plausibly would give the opponent team an advantage (ie. first pick mid/top is easily countered). I think that the "ideal" solution to champ select, in order to minimize the lobby conflicts as much as possible would be to have a pre-queue system that, does not segregate according to "top, jung, mid, adc, or supp", but to have it labeled as "bruiser, jungler, apc, adc, support". And then within the lobby, the selection of champions should order the picks with the least counterable role (ie. 1. support, 2. jungler, 3. adc , 4. top, 5. mid) I think that this would still commit players to a role/champ that they WANT to play, but it would also allow some strategies to be mingled with in the lobby (ie. someone q's as a "bruiser", however they know the opponent that they will be laning against will have a lane advantage, then possibly the guy who q'ed as "apc" has a viable lane opponent for the "bruiser" to go against. They could talk about lane swapping supposing that both would cooperate.) same could go for top/bot swapping. i definitely think there needs to be some kind of lobby voting system, either for a single player to be kicked (afk auto kick is a must), or for the whole team to be mutually disbanded if things are looking that rough. another thing, i think that players should be matched semi-according to the honor that they most have accumulated (ie. players with mostly "teamwork" honor points should be matched up with other players that have the same honor points circumstance.)

anyway, those are my thoughts, hopefully they can shed some light on improving champ select.


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dcg87

Senior Member

03-17-2013

i actually like all 3 and it seems the most concerning one for most people is the 3rd one (troll island) saying that the number of players would decrease... but if we analyze the situation a bit we can see that it would benefit the bigger picture, for example. there is an average of 1-2 trolls per game according to players these days so lets make that a 1.5 out of 10. so getting rid of 15% of global players for being trolls and toxic players you create a more solid community that would easily attract new players seeing how it has become more friendly and supportive

TLDR; the island benefits the majority, ban all trolls and toxic players for the greater good. no one will miss them -_-