Let's talk about Champ Select

First Riot Post
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Mirth The Bard

Member

03-17-2013

1. Vote kick should be a thing. It should be 3/5 vote(or else no one duo queued could get kicked). This system is entirely fair as it forces the person trolling or choosing in a manner disrespectful to his team to suffer point loss and time penalty, rather then forcing any of the others to dodge and lose points and time or to suffer through a game with a troll.

2. I feel like this idea is the best and has to be implemented in some way soon. If WoW dungeon finder was implemented as a way to queue in League, it would almost entirely eliminate the problem of arguments early and someone needing to be kicked.

3. I don't know about this one. Looking at it fairly for Riot's perspective as well, it would cause a drop in many players that get stuck in there. It's a tough argument for or against it, there's a lot of reasons it would be good for, but many for against too.

However I fully agree on the first and second options being implemented.


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Maykind

Member

03-17-2013

Well, i think the solution to this problem is not that hard. Why dont riot give us an option whether players want a pick order or call order. If 3 or more than 3 ppl want pick order then the game will state that it is a pick, and if it is a call then just call accordingly.


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Lyte

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Lead Social Systems Designer

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03-17-2013
53 of 55 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brodhi View Post
Pick order will always be a better indication of skill than call order. I am unsure of how it is currently, but in Ranked beforehand the highest ELO player was at the top going down to the lowest. Therefore, that top person is the most skilled person on the team, and as such should have priority with the position he is most skilled at. Human nature, as previously stated in this thread, is going to kick in and you are going to say, "well damn, I am probably better than him at mid." but in reality he is already proven to be better at you at this game simply by being higher ELO.

Call Order was made up because Riot did not enforce the philosophy of "highest ELO = highest skill" even though that is what the entire point of "ELO" is for. I am assuming the idea shifted so that highest MMR is now at the top (because I've been above Silver 1/2's as Silver 3 before), which is still indicative of the fact you have a higher skill level than everyone below you.

Like it or not, there are always going to be people better than you at this game, and it isn't their responsibility to let you whine and ***** so you get to play the role you "called" but rather it is your responsibility to understand that you are not as good as them and understand that you should allow them the lane/champ/whatever they are skilled with.
The problem with this is that in the vast majority of games, 1st and 5th pick are differentiated by 1 game's worth of MMR. In other words, if you are 5th pick and won 1 or 2 more games, you would have been 1st pick that game.

Although the 1st pick does have the highest MMR for that particular lobby, it's not statistical support that he's the best player in the lobby.


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Zerglinator

Senior Member

03-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyte View Post
The problem with this is that in the vast majority of games, 1st and 5th pick are differentiated by 1 game's worth of MMR. In other words, if you are 5th pick and won 1 or 2 more games, you would have been 1st pick that game.

Although the 1st pick does have the highest MMR for that particular lobby, it's not statistical support that he's the best player in the lobby.
I've had a number of times where I'm First Pick, then someone dodges. I get a new Champion Select, and I'm last pick. Or fourth pick.

Sometimes I wish I could choose to have lower MMR teammates just so I get the champs I actually want...for once.


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sirderpzalot123

Junior Member

03-17-2013

Add a mute button in the champion select. People can call lanes but it wont make a difference people will pick what they want. I have to ignore everyone when the game starts anyway, because of all the negativity. Give us the option to mute people in champ select if they start out being negative.


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YoloHaxor

Junior Member

03-17-2013

Hmm Add unique supports other than the Shield knock up and heal supports and bring something new like a support based on elements that creates Aoe affects?


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StompWhomp

Junior Member

03-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyte View Post
The problem with this is that in the vast majority of games, 1st and 5th pick are differentiated by 1 game's worth of MMR. In other words, if you are 5th pick and won 1 or 2 more games, you would have been 1st pick that game.

Although the 1st pick does have the highest MMR for that particular lobby, it's not statistical support that he's the best player in the lobby.
It also has nothing to do with positions - someone who is a good jungler might have a game where they played ADC, which they are not as familiar with, and lost, even though their jungling with X, Y and Z champions is head and shoulders above the rest of their potential champion selection and position combinations.

When you hear people talk about pros playing something like Anivia from level 10 to Diamond, do you really think they're going to be just as good if they have to play Taric for a game? Hell no!


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MechanicalPirate

Member

03-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyte View Post
We want to take some time today to talk about Champion Select.

1) What are the problems?
2) What are some potential solutions?

The player behavior team has been running research on Champ Select and we agree that Champ Select is currently not a great environment and does not set teams up for success. We’ve all experienced Champ Selects that have erupted in arguments and had that sinking feeling that the game is lost before it even started. In saying this, there are plenty of Champ Select lobbies that are awesome and being positive and cooperative in every lobby does help; however, being positive by itself will not solve the problems in Champ Select and we don’t expect it to.

Solving player behavior problems in League of Legends requires collaboration between us and players and we haven’t done our part in Champ Select yet. As you can imagine, the problems (and any potential solutions) are complicated.

Something we’re seeing in our research is the influence of context.

But you know what?

This player's behavior isn’t toxic. He’s just like any one of us--we all have our bad days.

---

Let’s break down this scenario into some of the problems that we’d like to solve in Champ Select:

1) Real-Life Context | This scenario really illustrates how context outside the game can influence behavior inside the game. Traditionally, game studios don’t design or solve for context. Or can they?

2) In-Game Context | This scenario illustrates the conflict between Pick Order and Call Order. When there are literally no guidelines, at best, half of the players believe in Pick Order and half believe in Call Order—we’ve created a situation where conflicts are expected rather than rare.

3) Time Pressure | From psychology, we know that time pressure sometimes twists context in hostile ways. Players in Champ Select are effectively trying to negotiate with each other over individual goals (i.e, what role I want to play this game) that overlap with team goals (i.e, given this set of teammates, what’s the best strategy for us to win?). Studies suggest that throwing time pressure in there is like adding fuel to the fire—the end result is more disagreements and lower quality of negotiations.

4) Cognitive Biases | Hopefully davin will talk more about this, but people show cognitive bias in many ways. For example, many of us enter Champ Select thinking we are the best at whatever role we want to play—this is statistically impossible; however, there’s no reason to trust any of the strangers in the lobby. This really isn’t the players’ fault, it’s simply being human.

These are some major problems with Champ Select that we’ve identified in our research. So what’s next? A lot of players have suggested the following:

1) Vote Kick | Players want the ability to vote kick toxic players from Champ Select.
2) WoW Dungeon Finder | Players want the ability to queue up for a particular role like “Healer” and “DPS” and placed into a Champ Select with a team
3) Prisoner’s Island | Players want matchmaking to pair toxic players with toxic players, and positive players with positive players.

What are some pros and cons to these ideas? Would they work for League?
With what i've experienced, the main problem is players fighting over roles (mostly top and mid). Then because players have different opinions of how the pick order/call order should work, champ picks could end up being picked in a manner that plausibly would give the opponent team an advantage (ie. first pick mid/top is easily countered). I think that the "ideal" solution to champ select, in order to minimize the lobby conflicts as much as possible would be to have a pre-queue system that, does not segregate according to "top, jung, mid, adc, or supp", but to have it labeled as "bruiser, jungler, apc, adc, support". And then within the lobby, the selection of champions should order the picks with the least counterable role (ie. 1. support, 2. jungler, 3. adc , 4. top, 5. mid) I think that this would still commit players to a role/champ that they WANT to play, but it would also allow some strategies to be mingled with in the lobby (ie. someone q's as a "bruiser", however they know the opponent that they will be laning against will have a lane advantage, then possibly the guy who q'ed as "apc" has a viable lane opponent for the "bruiser" to go against. They could talk about lane swapping supposing that both would cooperate.) same could go for top/bot swapping. i definitely think there needs to be some kind of lobby voting system, either for a single player to be kicked (afk auto kick is a must), or for the whole team to be mutually disbanded if things are looking that rough. another thing, i think that players should be matched semi-according to the honor that they most have accumulated (ie. players with mostly "teamwork" honor points should be matched up with other players that have the same honor points circumstance.)

anyway, those are my thoughts, hopefully they can shed some light on improving champ select.


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dcg87

Senior Member

03-17-2013

i actually like all 3 and it seems the most concerning one for most people is the 3rd one (troll island) saying that the number of players would decrease... but if we analyze the situation a bit we can see that it would benefit the bigger picture, for example. there is an average of 1-2 trolls per game according to players these days so lets make that a 1.5 out of 10. so getting rid of 15% of global players for being trolls and toxic players you create a more solid community that would easily attract new players seeing how it has become more friendly and supportive

TLDR; the island benefits the majority, ban all trolls and toxic players for the greater good. no one will miss them -_-


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Bzerk

Junior Member

03-18-2013

I think that the main source of problems in role selection is in the very bottom of the old ELO system or now lower Leagues. When you watch streams of people like Dyrus or Voyboy or even just play in higher League/ELO games, people pretty much always abide by the pick order philosophy. People will say in the team chat what they prefer to play, but in the end pick order determines what you play in those games.This makes it seem that the call or pick order problem is only in the lower level games where players dont understand that pick order ends up being the "law" if they go up in Leagues.

As a newer player to LoL, I just got level 30 last week after a month of playing, I havent had the experience in ranked yet, especially high ELO ranked games obviously, so this is based mostly off of watching streams of high ELO players and friends who have played for much longer and are in Diamond/Platinum so take it for what you want

The best solution seems to be a combination of many different ideas that have been tossed around in this forum as well as others I have seen. The "dungeon finder" idea is a good start, but as people have said throughout this thread multiple times, there are holes in it which I think can be fixed eventually. First, it would have to be combined with another system to enforce the position you want to play, the "vote kick" is one way of doing that. Is there another way to enforce that you pick a champ for the position you actually queued for without stagnating the meta? Yea probably but I dont think I have seen a perfect one yet but here are some of the best suggestions I have seen/come up with:


1) You could have a section in each summoner's profile where they rank the 5 positions on which they prefer the most to the least and have the matchmaker somehow consider said list. The list would be editable whenever you could open your profile. Then once in champ select there would be some display that showed your team what you queued for, probably under your name/champion picture. You could then limit the certain champs that could be selected by any given role, although this wholeheartedly stagnates the meta, or allow "vote kick" to take place.

2) This is what I think is the best option! You have time given to each team before bans or champ select to discuss what it is that you would like to do this game, more so for team strategy/prefer champs/proposed bans/if you are going to pick and switch with someone/etc.. than positions because that is already determined when you queue for a certain position. After this time has expired, allow for any possible "vote kicks" to occur and if no one is kicked from either team then you go to champ select. This gives you a chance to kick anyone who refuses to talk in team chat, something that is a real problem that I have experienced multiple times and is even worse than people arguing over positions because they pick a champ without saying anything and you and your team are forced to guess on what they want to do, or kick someone who wants to play a certain champ in a role that the team doesn't think will be good in that role. You then give another chance to kick someone after champ select is finished to make sure everyone picks a champ that fits into the strategy that the team discussed earlier/the position they actually queued for.

Again, I believe this to be a constant problem that appears in places where people think they are in "ELO hell" and dont think they belong there so they want to play the role that they think can carry the game for their team and thus make a big deal when they dont get that role. And yes it does suck when you call/want to play top lane , or whatever, and let someone else play it and they feed the other top laner why you sit there thinking, "We so would have won if I got to play top like I wanted!" or, "Why did I get put on a team with this guy who called/picked ADC and then picked a melee, AP champ and try to convince our team that it would work?!". I would almost prefer an established meta so that people couldnt go and pick a champ that doesnt fit the certain role they are playing and then screw up the game for their team bc the other team has the standard team comp and you are stuck with a jungler that clears slow and doesnt have good gank potential because the guy wanted to try jungle and just picked his favorite AP mid champ!

Anyway to make champ select more structured , organized, and a better experience for people will be a plus for me but just thought I would put my suggestions out there that I hadnt seen in the tens of pages I read in this thread.