So, about that Karma leak...

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Healurownbum

Senior Member

03-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Featherfox View Post
I made this post in another thread, but I want to post it here as well. I'm clearly not understanding the position as to why Karma should remain the way she is now - and I honestly do want an answer to this question. To that end - here's the post. I warn you, it is long.

I don't want circular arguments, I don't want to go back and forth about supports having money to buy items, to supports don't have money since they need wards. I'll present what I see here, and you can then tell me how the weaknesses I've experienced in-game when playing Karma can be off-set by anything other than the enemy's lack of awareness on how to play against her.

Karma's Passive: I'm never a fan of anything that relies on you risking your life in order to have a gain. However, as Karma's healing functions better the lower your health is, this passive works amazingly for her kit; the weaker she is, the harder she is to kill. Still, beyond the lack of awareness that people have over just how strong Karma gets as her life goes down (Free Rabadons - yay), when a person combats Karma with knowledge of how her other powers work, this passive does little to help her beyond desperate situations.

Still - it's a much better passive than Zyra's!

Karma's Q
Heavenly Wave: Range 400, Damage 70/110/150/190/230/270 (+0.6) magic damage in a cone
Mantra Boost: heal allies in the cone for 35/55/75/95/115/135 plus 5% (+0.02%) of their missing Health.

Sona's Q
Hymn of Valor: Range 650, Damage 50/100/150/200/250 (+0.7) magic damage to 2 targets (prioritizing champions)
Power Chord Staccato - Range 550, Damage (8 + 10 x Sona's character level) x 2

Lux's Q
Light Binding: Range 1175, Damage 60/110/160/210/260 (+0.7) magic damage to up to 2 targets.

Sona is revered as a lane-bully as a support champion because the poke from her Hymn and her Staccato is very strong. However, Karma deals slightly better damage until level 5. Lux, as a mid-lane opponent against AP Karma, obtains damage parity as early as level 3, and maintains damage superiority from that point on. Karma never regains her "damage edge" from level 1. Furthermore - range 400!!! The team-heal element is amazing, but it won't save you from a Fiddlesticks Ultimate - and it's definitely a poor team strategy to group up if the enemy has Amumu, Sejuani (I saw her referenced earlier on this thread), or other AoE CC/Damage compositions. At this point, I'll be reminded of Karma's E - which we'll be getting to in a moment.

Karma's W
Spirit Bond - Range 800 (yay!) Damage 80/125/170/215/260/305 (+0.7) magic damage
CC: enemy anchors are slowed by 10/12/14/16/18/20%
Buff: allied anchors move 10/12/14/16/18/20% faster
Mantra Bonus: double the effect of the movement speed modifiers.

Lulu's Q
Glitterlance - Range 925, Damage 80/125/170/215/260 (+0.5) magic damage
CC: slowing enemies hit by 80%

Lux's E
Lucent Singularity - Range 1100, Damage 60/105/150/195/240 (+0.6) magic damage
CC: slows enemies by 20/24/28/32/36%

Now this is an ability. I know other people like Karma's shields and fans, but this power is the reason I bought the champ, and was determined to learn support with her. The power this ray-beam has is incredible! However - the beam must be "tethered" to a target, either friendly or enemy. Also (and here's the nightmare people refuse to acknowledge) the beam only does damage to people who "cross" it. Tethering the beam on your enemy will do 0 damage to that enemy. If it weren't for this power specifically, Karma wouldn't even be able to get in range to hurt opponents as an AP champ. As a support, this is an excellent counter-gank tool, chase tool, and escape tool all built into one funky pink laser! This is the superior source of Karma's damage, and is rendered useless if the enemy understands just how the laser works. You can't target the laser on your enemy, you must "work" the laser so it "bumps" your enemy while it's stuck on something else. Thus, as a laning tool it's only useful for farming, and as a support tool it's more useful for it's CC than it's damage. The only time you'll even see potential gain from the damage on this ability is in teamfights - where the chaos of events may prevent the enemy from being aware of it's presence, or (hopefully even better) the laser can create a zoning tool to help shape the combat in your favour. Again, a lack of awareness on the ray's abilities by the enemy gives you a great edge, but a similar lack of awareness on your team can cause you to lose that same edge in battle.

Karma's E
Soul Shield - Range 650, Buff 80/120/160/200/240/280 (+0.8) damage absorbed
Mantra Bonus: 80/120/160/200/240/280 (+0.8) magic damage

Janna's E
Eye of the Storm - Range 800, Buff 80/120/160/200/240 (+0.9) damage absorbed
Buff 14/23/32/41/50 Attack Damage

Lux's W
Prismatic Barrier - Range 1075, Buff 80/105/130/155/180 (+0.35) damage absorbed, can be applied 2 times to the same target for a (potential) maximum shield absorbing 160/210/260/310/360 (+0.7) damage.

This is the power I see most loved by Karma fans - the powerful AoE nuking shield. Place this on your Malphite/Volibear/suicidal Graves and watch the enemy team cry as you unleash pain while keeping the initiator alive! As a support tool this power is incredibly strong, and the poke is nice too. However, as a mid-lane tool this will often be only as effective as Lux's shield. An enemy who's aware of the shield's use will know to keep their distance from all of Karma's powers. Karma will have an easy time farming using her mana-hungry abilities, but so will the enemy. Karma can use a combination of her shield and her fans to "prevent" last-hitting while clearing the minion waves, but doing so consumes all of her mantra points for effects that just dealt no damage to the enemy. The radius of Karma's explosion from her shield is only 300 - making this ability the shortest damage-dealing range of all her powers, and she has to spend a mantra point to unleash it. Despite it's decent damage, the laser outpaces the damage potential of this power, and doesn't even cost mantra to use. We've already covered the annoyance that power provides in dealing effective damage.

I actually chose different supports for a reason when demonstrating what Karma can do. Karma actually does the job of several supports in one kit - a powerful combination that's balanced by her short range. I have wrecked bot-lane with Karma before, and I've seen other Karma players wreck bot-lane with a variety of carries at their sides. However, in almost every instance I've watched/played in victory, the enemy either was unaware of Karma's range, or lacked the vision to predict Karma's next move. Since a support's primary role is vision, both these points are failures on the enemy, not a boost to the Karma player. Skill is a factor that can't be quantifiably judged (though we do try). Invariably, one player will always be better than the other, and if the Karma player is the better-skilled player, then there's little argument on who's going to win. My post here is trying to showcase what happens when skill is equal. The Karma player faces an opponent who understands the champ, and knows Karma's weaknesses. When skill is removed, Karma is revealed as a 300-range nuke champ who baits her team into AoE-based disasters that can mimic the abilities that other supports are revered for.

Furthermore, please note that I included the level-dependant advancement for a reason. Karma "loses" all level advantages early, and doesn't regain them until much later. There is a huge difference between a level 1 advantage and a level 9 advantage. Karma is dependant on keeping up with her enemy. If Karma is denied even slightly (by jungle pressure or just good counter-play) then Karma may never catch up. Her own kit creates an exploitable weakness due to her 6 level mechanic on her powers (as she has no "ultimate"). Also, note that Karma has no ultimate, while Lux has a quick-firing Final Spark, Sona has a Crescendo, Lulu has a Wild Growth, and Janna has a Monsoon. Karma gives up a "game changing" power, so she can do an extra 20 to 60 damage for an acquired "level 6" power.

Finally, the arguments about Mantra! Mantra takes 30/25/20 seconds to recharge, and up to 2 charges can be held in storage. Assuming max CDR (since I agree that supports CAN afford that amount while still supporting effectively with wards), Karma can reach 12 second recharge on her mantra. Also, Mantra can last for 8 seconds before the charge is wasted. Thus, clever Karma tacticians can squeeze out 3 Mantra charges in one teamfight. This allows for one shield nuke, one super-slow laser, and one heal. After that, Karma's done. If the laser is not how you wish to cripple the team, then you can save one mantra charge for a second heal. Still, Karma's finished after that - teamfight will almost always be over by then. Mantra is such a limiting factor with it's current count. Aside from one spectacular burst in a teamfight, it's rather weak when compared to laning or supporting. The 400 range on the heal is crippling, and requires Karma to expose herself as a support (while consuming mantra). The nuke on the shield is so close-range, that most support/carry compositions won't be in range of the nuke you use to shield your carry - thus mantra charges are pretty much reserved for healing while laning. In AP mid, Karma's in the same situation, unless she wants to farm with her shield. Doing that creates a golden opportunity for your opponent to strike you down, as one of your two preservation powers was used to farm.

I hope that as you read this post, you realized that I do love Karma as a champion. I enjoy her playstyle, but I see her weaknesses. These weaknesses, if known by the enemy, can't be compensated for. A jungler has to babysit AP Karma in lane to help her keep up (or if he's really good, get her ahead), which allows the enemy jungler to have free reign on wrecking top or bottom lane. As a support, Karma's short range forces her to be a heal/shield/slow support champion, which almost describes Lulu but with shorter range.

I left items out since bringing up items only made people angry that supports aren't buying wards (*sigh*).

Now, for your question. Taking all of the above into account, please elaborate how Karma isn't disadvantaged in season 3. Knowing her self-created damage deficiencies, and her crippling short range, please clarify how Karma is "amazing" beyond the enemy's lack of awareness in how Karma is played. Why doesn't Karma need to be changed?

tl:dr - There isn't one. This is a legitimate argument put forth to question why people don't want Karma's remake. I do not understand their position, and I am providing my logic in the hopes that civil discourse will reveal why Karma fans like her the way she is.

- Featherfox

References

- Source of Karma Information: http://na.leagueoflegends.com/champi...nlightened_one
- Source of Karma's AoE radius: http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wik...bility_Details
- Source of Sona Information: http://na.leagueoflegends.com/champi...of_the_strings
- Source of Sona's AA range and damage for Power chords: http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Sona
- Source of Lux Information: http://na.leagueoflegends.com/champi..._of_luminosity
- Source of Lulu Information: http://na.leagueoflegends.com/champi..._fae_sorceress
- Source of Janna Information: http://na.leagueoflegends.com/champi...e_storm_s_fury
Oh dear lord this is going to take me awhile XD

Her passive made it able as a support to go very tanky and still have a chunk of AP when needed if ppl werent trying to take out the ADC they would target me. Which when it came to it was a mistake as tanky support Karma how i played her can stay alive very long and still support and keep up here group. But if you didnt go for me my shield and my heals on the group would scale the fight towards us.

Her Q did a nice chunk of dmg but it requires you to be in range making it easier for the enemy to dmg you and you will take AoE dmg, a other reason why i would build her more tanky. And with mantra and 40% CDR u could get the heal off atleast twice in a fight. And it would heal from 200/500 easily depending on the targets health and i would hit atleast 2 ppl with that heal if not more.

My W i would cast on someone far back in the enemy's lines so it would slow them and i try and put myself between them and then squishy's making it harder to get to them and generally means my own team mates would be easier to hit with my R/Q. And its an pretty sexy ability to get the hell out if needed. U could cast it on someone who is extreemly fast on the enemy team and make sure your friends are in that bond so get away. And it works rly well. Problem with Karma how she is now its all abt where you stand u cant expect ur team to work in your favour u have to make your own succes. I love that having to work to get the best out of it all. I mean really work not just press R and heal the team like Soraka. No i have to watch where my ass is standing to heal more ppl.

E is just amazing its a extreemly strong shield that has a decent CD with max CDR easily able to get two off in a teamfight and one when someone goes in to start the fight. I generally dont use the R/E tho i expect my Q to do decent dmg and my W. The rest is up to my team.

Now thats more abt late game and what not. Laning im kinda agressive i Q the enemy and let them poke me once or twice. Slowly letting them poke me down. But making sure i do a nice chunk of dmg back on there ADC. While mine barely takes a scratch.
And there will be a point around 40% of your HP left they will try and get you. But by that time you will have a nice amount of AP from your passive ur shield can take a blow. And if your good u can see them coming abling you to get the shield off before they rly start. U become this kiting bait goddes. While letting your ADC nuke them. And if they try to get away you can slow them with your W and speed up your ADC.

(This is becoming an annoyingly long post im afraid and its all as to how i play i highly doubt anyone else plays her like this, and i just pray to god im answer the questions you have with this... And not wasting your time.)

And if you do get ganked they generally go for your ADC just W the ganker or one closest to your ADC and shield your ADC if they respond well enough they should be able to get away unless there is too much hard CC.

One more thing i barely use my mantra's in lane unless i wanna heal up my ADC from creep tanking. I spare them for the double heal or speed up. I try and let my ADC or team do most of the dmg.

Now for the new kit, i am not rly able to say i hate it. It looks alright tbh (I still hate change never been good with it im afraid) I just miss the ability to pick now when your either APC or Support ur going to be forced to R/E from where im sitting. And you will not be in the middle of it all anymore might be a good thing tho. But my W i dont rly see myself running up to the ADC going Tag your it! in the hope i dont die before he gets snared. I rly dont know how how its going to work out tbh maybe mantra can be up twice in a single teamfight and im just being a drama queen.

But what i would of liked in this kit was for the second part of Q to be a AoE heal a exploding heal. Leaving you with the ability to pick either Q or E mantra. Current set is more selfish and more abt doing one thing for your group and then focussing on getting kills. Not rly saving lives but killing. While old Karma can do both, this new Karma is alot more agressive and alot less abt her team. Sure u still have R/E but thats kinda it. Rest is based around keeping the enemy where it is and killing it, not abt keeping your team alive u did your R/E why worry anymore. (Again dramaqueen i know)

I pray to god this some what helps. And if i ****ed up sorry! I tried reading your bit several times it was hard to make it stick... And i kinda winged it...


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Ireona

Recruiter

03-17-2013

as a karma player, im so freakin' happy

also, hooray for no whitewashing.


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Gen Nakazora

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Senior Member

03-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Featherfox View Post
Umm... I may be reading this wrong, but Demilumi I support the Karma change. I don't understand why people "don't" want the remake. I'm asking them to come forward and present a counter to the evidence I presented on why Karma needs a rework. So far, no replies.

- Featherfox
It seems its more about change in general than anything. I'll admit to that, being one that is more for old Karma. That is to say though, in no way am I AGAINST the rework. I just don't believe this is the right direction. I've stated at least once, maybe twice, that the change to W is... lazy. It feels like they took Leblanc's E for it. And I KNOW people suggested that on the forums quite a lot. So it doesn't help my feeling there.
And the loss of heal, I am more sad I lose more pushing potential, since I am a player that loves champs that can push lanes well. the area heal allowed minions to sometimes take another hit from a turret, or prevent a last hit while smacking an enemy. I never wasted the shield or heal to just shield or heal minions. I used it to weaken waves, poke champions, and sustain myself, since Karma heals as well from it.
So... yeah. Change =/= Bad, but I'm not 100% behind this one.


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The SteamBath

Junior Member

03-17-2013

Oh yes.... There will be blood... Think of all the new roles she will be able to play!!!


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The5lacker

Senior Member

03-17-2013

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Originally Posted by The SteamBath View Post
Oh yes.... There will be blood... Think of all the new roles she will be able to play!!!
Well...the same roles, but better.


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Featherfox

Member

03-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Healurownbum View Post
Oh dear lord this is going to take me awhile XD


(This is becoming an annoyingly long post im afraid and its all as to how i play i highly doubt anyone else plays her like this, and i just pray to god im answer the questions you have with this... And not wasting your time.)


I pray to god this some what helps. And if i ****ed up sorry! I tried reading your bit several times it was hard to make it stick... And i kinda winged it...
This is exactly the kind of answer I was looking for. In your opinion, Karma is an AP tank, not an AP mid or full support. The role Karma plays is (albeit very differently) a similar one to Taric or Alistar, with less CC and more shields. Based on what I described, you showed with your concept of play-style that you didn't find Karma's lack of range crippling, and that you found going tank was the proper way to use her (hence getting in close and quite possibly going in first).

You don't consider it a flaw if you get poked down by the enemy team, probably relying on her passive free Rabadons to bait out an attack and swiftly turn the tables with burst damage as they try to go for a kill. It's a gamble though - and does require skill to pull off.

I'd like to hear from more Karma players, but this is an excellent start. A lot of the complaints I've seen are from people who support Karma as AP Mid. That's not typically a tanky role.

Going further - I think everyone can agree that Riot did not intend her to be a tank, based on her passive stats and abilities. However, Karma-tank with that beautiful passive makes her quite useful as a pseudo-initiator support. Not the typical behaviour of a mage though.

I appreciate the reply, and hope someone else steps forward to address the rest of my post. Thank you again for your time, Healurownbum.

- Featherfox


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Mogidishu

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Senior Member

03-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
Quite frankly, having a kit that encourages you to be a low health to be more effective is both counter intuitive and troll-ish.

There are a few cases where it has worked (Olaf/Tryn) but only because of how limited they are by their melee nature. A ranged caster (a squishy concept) isn't the right place for that kind of mechanic. I appreciate how much you care, but that's not a great expenditure of our design and player-education dollars.

i for one will miss this mechanic, my days of being an 800 hp lvl 1 tank for my carry are now gone.
I had a good time being the soaker for all the damage as the entire team tried to kill me and then walking out as my team mops up.

however from what im hearing this new kit will reward my often aggressive karma style rather nicely.


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Healurownbum

Senior Member

03-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Featherfox View Post
I appreciate the reply, and hope someone else steps forward to address the rest of my post. Thank you again for your time, Healurownbum.

- Featherfox
Happy to reply dude, just hope ppl see this as how i play her and what i enjoy abt her. And what i think im going to loose with this remake. And the lose is what upsets me


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MischievousSloth

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Member

03-17-2013

I'm a little peeved that Karma doesn't heal allies anymore....


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Fatal Pride

Member

03-17-2013

This skills set looks a vomit spewed mess of some of her old spells with LeBlanc's chain thrown in.
And that such a cop-out passive. Its pretty much Skarners but only for her Ultimate and spells make it go down too. But then I have to question, how long does it take to build a charge, seeing as she only can have one now.

Just reading this leaves much to be desired and makes me hope that you don't put this in.
Although, I do like her new character model. Thats nice, its goes with your recent design choices of female characters. Well, a lot of people have female characters that look similar. It will help with your teen-to-twenty male audience.