So, about that Karma leak...

First Riot Post
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Enhander

Senior Member

03-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Koechophe View Post
I find it more frustrating that her new passive was more of a cop out. In reality, the fact that the mantra reduces CD with damage is something that makes FAR more sense to be tied to her ult. Her current passive just seems like "We didn't know what kind of passive to give her, so we just removed a piece of her ultimate and called it a passive."
This is a big problem that they put in. I'm afraid she's going to suffer from Renekton-itis now. That is, her passive is next to useless.

Most of the issues that were wrong with Karma were actually not the concept of her kit though. By far, the largest issues were that all of her abilities required 6 points, yet they only had the power of an ability that required 5 points. Because of this, she was always one step behind everyone else.

The second largest problem was her ranges. Her Q range required her to be almost melee range to fully utilize its power. Sure she could be in the back lane healing, but that means that an entire half (the damage portion) of her skill goes to waste. I'm glad to see that they buffed her AA range though, as that was just absurdly low.

And then of course they gutted her passive. I'm really not sure why. What you posted is correct, it seems like a complete cop out. If they needed this long to do the rework, they should have been able to come up with a proper passive, not some tack-on.


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ValkronTheTurtle

Junior Member

03-17-2013

As far as my expectations for her potential ratios, i wouldnt say they will be absolute garbage.

I imagine it will be something like this:

  1. Q: Base damage (+70% AP) Mantra bonus: Additional AOE damage (+25% AP)
  2. W: Base damage (+80% AP) Mantra bonus: Additional base damage and heal with (+15% AP additional healing)
  3. E: Base shield (+65% AP) Mantra bonus: Additional AOE shield (+20% AP) and AOE damage (+35% AP)

Of course, this is just speculation based on my understanding of how her new skills will behave and the fact she is supposed to be still mid viable.


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The5lacker

Senior Member

03-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Koechophe View Post
I find it more frustrating that her new passive was more of a cop out. In reality, the fact that the mantra reduces CD with damage is something that makes FAR more sense to be tied to her ult. Her current passive just seems like "We didn't know what kind of passive to give her, so we just removed a piece of her ultimate and called it a passive."
Bingo. Exactly my problem with this new kit. Everything else looks good, and old Inner Flame would still work well with this.


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SirLapse

Member

03-17-2013

First thing is first.

For everyone who thinks the root is effective:
No, just no. Add a DIRECT Root that slows them after being caught in it until the skill ends. Then, I'd be all for it. If the heal could be applied to your lane partner or jungler, that'd be nice. Or, maybe a newer concept of damaging a portion of your hp in order to mitigate an opponent's attack. A unique mechanic like that, I wouldn't mind that with the old passive. But alas, the new passive removes the previous AP potential Karma originally had.
That shield is going to have to be pretty impressive to make up for the lack of a heal on a champ that previously had a heal, I want to go "HOLY- THIS SHIELD IS AMAZING." Lulu has a hp buff along with a shield, which makes her viable in that direction (she has both available).

There are only 3 directions of all leading supports:
Healing
CC
Shielding
If Karma is just going to have a soft CC combined with a difficult to land hard CC, I'm not going to consider playing that at all. DO YOU HEAR ME RIOT? GIVE KARMA HEALING OR GREAT SHIELD POTENTIAL AND A HARD CC THAT WORKS WELL.

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Now, for ItemsGuy and Bilbo. (Anyone who isn't either of these two can pass on by, unless you're bored)
Here's what I'm starting to find as I'm reading both of your posts more and more.

I'm not too experienced with concept development as I am with character development, but I do know that what you're trying to do is very irregular. You're trying to form your own concept of "Karma," when you not only were not the creators of the character, but had no part in its advancement as a character before all this. That's very outgoing (innovative things are good in most cases).

But, it is Riot's job to form the character into how they feel in the end she should "grow." The thing I'm seeing from your concept literally changes all the previous skills, and instead of boosting her other skills, you change them entirely. You even don't care how much the Lore is affected, even though it does matter to some like myself. With that skill set in mind, you've already created a completely different champion just by forming your own concept. Anyone can perceive your interpretation of Karma as something different- even if you define it, there's more than one way of thinking about it. I actively believe that you wanted her created as such, not using the predecessor as a template to improve on like Riot is trying to do.

In the end, what I'm trying to say is that your champ just seems to embody the name better to a certain regard-however it is not the same champ that was previously presented. Even if it can represent it better, Riot works on trying to build off of the predecessor instead of destroying all of what they originally had in place. That's something that I assume you would like to change, but the fact of the matter is-that's the only way they have done things so far. Exceptions in the future might include Sion where the original concept was distorted to the point of just barely being relevant.

You can post Riot's quotes all you like, but I think they can agree with me on the fact that you're recreating a champ in the image you feel that it needs to be, not advancing the original character like Riot is trying to do. Advancing to them means sacrificing obsolete fragments due to the meta while trying to maintain what the champ stood for in their eyes. If they're willing to give up and do some things, I don't see how a compromise can't be reached somehow. But a complete redeux like you're suggesting just prolongs development heavily and unnecessarily.
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For ItemsGuy only:
Their reworks for Eve and Twitch pretty much killed the "always stealthed" option that, for Twitch players, seemed like an impossible condition to surpass in order to play. It's not hard to manage the stacks if you were conditioned to playing without Spray and Pray as a first resort (like many Twitches already had). They destroyed the imbalanced gameplay (forced the opponent to buy stealth detect in the case of Eve/Twitch) and things that impaired the character as a result of having those cheap plays available. When I spoke of balance, the point gets ignored almost entirely. Once you initiate and have someone possess the mark, you're defenseless. Completely. Junglers are meant to be experts at taking out high priority targets, and a squishy champion like Karma simply cannot last against that at all because your kit doesn't give any form of defense afterward (current Karma has to be at an almost perfect position in a team fight to utilize her effectively, this includes your team and knowing how she plays, not to mention possessing Mantra or potentially being useless). Your kit does the exact same thing, it revolves around your team reacting based on how she plays, and you need Mantra or the skills will be below average.
The passive practically encourages your Karma to receive damage, and since she's squishy, she'll never fully utilize the passive in a team fight (unless they let her escape).
Soft CC isn't enough, many people have already said so, which is why they are unhappy with the untimeliness of the Root on W. The meta does call for a form of peeling or hard CC. This is undeniable thanks to how leading supports are doing, and saying that "it'll work out" without any tests just makes me think less of your kit. This is also why I'm trusting Riot more; results are available to them, and results matter.

Let me clarify one major problem with that skill set also: It revolves around a shield. I'm stating it for the major point that, "What if it's broken?" The effectiveness moves to Karma, and since she is not always there in the action (due to the large range you gave for the Q passive), she is now out of the fight, unable to help her carry until she gets close enough (and guess what? If you didn't level Q, that shield is going to be pretty easy to break regardless). Old Karma can activate W for a save, along with the added heal from Q2. The movement speed bonus is very important, because you're ignoring one of the most used skills in the game-Ignite. The biggest problem with your kit is that Summoner spells shut it down too easily, and if they aren't used, gives a huge amount of pressure in the laning phase. LoL is unique in how it gives supports a damage skill or two, but you only have one damage skill that can potentially be weak (if focusing on barrier or heal), a passive (Q) that needs massive testing to see if the values won't be OP, a heal that has to not be able to match up with Q's normal effect, and all that with Mantra still being a necessity to be worth something. Oh, and a passive that's broken enough to be removed off of champs constantly. Riot's trying NOT to accomplish that.
----
Back to both of you:
I bolded the points that you should focus on, I'm tired of seeing you miss the point from piecing off my sentences from one another.


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ValkronTheTurtle

Junior Member

03-17-2013

I wonder if her passive will be linked to her level?
At least then it has a little sense to it being that way.

Theory crafting her mantra cd, if at rank 4 has 40 seconds, with 40% CDR that would be 24 seconds per mantra.
If her passive scaled on level so that at level 18 it had 4 seconds of cdr for mantra per champion damaged, that is a potential 4 second mantra cd in team fights.

But we will have to wait and see ^_^


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Dobyk

Member

03-17-2013

Since so many people have talked about her lore, here is a piece of her appraisal for the Institute of War. A very nice touch, added to her lore by Riot Consider this whenever you make lore and mechanic judgements. Courtesy of LoL Wikia:

Candidate: Karma

Date: January 28th, 21 CLE

REFLECTION

The meticulous artistry of the Institute always reminded Karma, by curious contrast, of the chaos of open war. Every inset groove was, to her, the face of a lost friend. She imagined what her fallen comrades might have thought of this comparison when a horribly familiar, acrid stench stung her nose. She turned in time for a brilliant green explosion to fill her view. She swept her steel fans against the blast, piercing a hole in its expanding wave. Her reaction, though immediate, only diminished the force. She focused her senses inward as air whipped past. Her form was steel while her hair and clothes swirled in the chaos. When the blast subsided, her once-immaculate locks hung in limp disarray and her dress was torn and caked with soil.

There was something unusual about the soil – a pungent smell. Blood. She looked up, bracing for the worst. Nonetheless, she was unprepared for what she saw. No, no...not again. In front of her, as far as she could see, lay the strewn bodies of Ionian villagers. Another green explosion in the distance sent cadavers arcing through the air. The taste of salt stung her lips. She didn’t even notice the tears tracing down her cheeks. She saw a shoe, much too small for any adult, raised from the ground ahead of her. A small leg extended beneath it, disappearing into the soil.

Karma snapped upright, raking the air around her with both fans. Tears and soil matted with blood flew away from her. When all settled she was transformed, emotions absent, eyes dark but calm. She was powerful, noble, the picture of dignity against a backdrop of unimaginable horror.

She strode with purpose towards a cackling figure in the distance. Its silhouette was one she could not forget: Zaun’s insane chemist, Warwick. He stood behind a glowing control panel atop an armored, beetle-shaped vehicle. He gesticulated with zeal as each explosion bit the Ionian landscape. He was human, although the lacking lycanthropy did not register with Karma. She was beyond thought, beyond emotion; ready to do what she must to stop what was happening in front of her.

Zaunite shock troops assembled before her, blocking her path. A wave of her fan and they were gone, their cries muted by the roaring gust. Warwick noticed her with glee. His fingers danced across the controls and a cannon extended from the transport beneath him. It fired a sickly green stream of liquid into the air above her, where it burst like a liquid firecracker. She thrust one fan into the air above her head, blowing back a portion of the falling ooze, though far less than she’d expected. Drops rained down around her. Where the drops touched her skin, they sizzled and burned through it. Karma cried out in agony.

“Delicious isn’t it, Duchess?” Warwick exclaimed. “I call it an Aerial Corrosive Mine. The acid is several times heavier than mercury, so your wind techniques won’t protect you.”

Karma crumpled to the ground, the acid boring into her flesh. She pushed herself up to a cross-legged meditative pose, blinked back the searing pain, and uttered a healing mantra. The pain lessened, although it still consumed her.

“It’s not meant to be fired into the air that way. I just wanted you to savor the taste. I’m afraid when I fire it directly at you, your delicate ‘weapons’ will be useless.”

A tinny voice chirped something indiscernible from the control panel. Warwick listened for a moment, and then nodded his head. “I would truly love to play with you some more, Duchess, but there are more Ionians in need of my services.” Warwick fiddled with the controls and the cannon lowered, aimed squarely at her. “This ends now.”

Karma blinked. Her mind was sluggish, flooded with frantic damage reports from nerves all over her body. A single thought floated to the surface of her awareness.

I've failed.

Just as she consigned herself to join those scattered around her, a blinding ray of light descended from the heavens, landing squarely on Warwick. He screamed as his skin melted away. His body contorted, muscles bursting outward. His head and limbs stretched, yanking joints apart and forming new ones. Long claws cut through the tips of his fingers and toes. He wrenched forward, then back, and when the spasms ceased his spine was long and hunched. His high-pitched wail suddenly turned to gravel, and blue hair stabbed out from every pore of his body. He fell to the ground in a heap. The light subsided.

Not far from him, a new form lay in the mud. Karma fought her way to her feet, acid still eating into her, and stumbled to the form. There in front of her laid Soraka, the spiritual icon of her people. The Starchild had lost the celestial radiance which characterized her transcendence. She lay staring upward, her expression vacant.

Reason overpowered remorse, and suddenly Karma knew she was seeing an illusion.

Soraka’s gaze turned to Karma, her eyes piercing her soul for answers. “Why do you want to join the League, Karma?” The voice was sad, resigned.

“Is this vision not enough?” Karma gestured all around them. The pain was suddenly gone. “This isn’t really over. These things never really end. All we can do is remain vigilant and try to protect those we love.”

“Always one for a speech.” Soraka smirked. “How does it feel, exposing your mind?”

“There is nothing on my mind that I wouldn’t happily share with you. How does it feel, knowing what we suffered, what you chose to ignore?”
Karma was suddenly alone in the antechamber of the Institute, the doors ahead opened to the League. She appraised her clothes, which were as pristine and spotless as when she entered. With an imperceptible shift, Karma summoned her composure and marched onward.


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GuardianScroll

Junior Member

03-17-2013

I would like to point out that Karma's name was really , imo, not a reference to her theme. I felt it was more as a little "trivia" thing, like Yorick and Hamlet, that realted back to Buddhists beliefs, because Karma had so many Buddhists references already. I don't mean to get all religious, but I think that the origanl concept or theme was balance not actually "Karma". Buddhism seemd like the perfect thing to gather trivia and references for her, but this actually confused people on what her theme really was. In the end this is what ultimatly caused her to be cast off, because people didn't really understand that the theme was balance. But as I siad in an earlier post, The theme "Balance" is not a proper theme to be used "The Iconic Leader of Ionia." In fact this theme would best suited for a more passive champ imo, and Karma is anything but a passive champ.


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blazingbird

Member

03-17-2013

It would be cool if Karma's tether rooted targets who broke the line when she used mantra. That way when Karma used mantra, and her tether was healing, enemies would need to decide between run and get rooted, or stay and let karma heal. Also, the current root would still exist without mantra, thus she could decided between two types of rooting. I feel that would make the move much more "karma-ish".


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fireandwater67

Junior Member

03-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by KageTatsujin View Post
i dont understand. why not make the tether heal/damage allies/enemies in the middle of w. if shes a support the heal shudnt go only to herself... just seems like your making it more toward apc instead of support.
I agree with this concept as it would make her an amazing support however as they are leaning toward making her solo top/ap mid this makes sense. Also Riot you could add this heal/damage tether to a new support. As it is an excellent idea. Over time heal=awesome.


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The5lacker

Senior Member

03-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by blazingbird View Post
It would be cooler if Karma's tether rooted targets who broke the line. That way when Karma used mantra, and her tether was healing, enemies would have to decide between run and get rooted, or stay and let karma heal. That would also make the move much more "karma-ish".
That's actually really clever, and makes a lot of thematic sense. Perhaps it could also be triggered early by activating the ability again, allowing Karma a more immediate hard cc to peel, seeing as that's 100% necessary in the meta.