So, about that Karma leak...

First Riot Post
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Josh de Tonreau

Senior Member

03-17-2013

she doesnt need a team heal. it was just about shield bashing anyway.


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Liljaywaun

Senior Member

03-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zerglinator View Post
If you insult people over liking Karma's old kit, you are bad. Sorry.
i really like karmas old kit i see no reason for change tbh..if your a good player you can figure out how to use her in a way where she can be a force to be reckoned with.I think the remake helps noobs who neeed tha extra help and extra damage as for me im fine if she dont change.But she does need a visual upgrade


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Liljaywaun

Senior Member

03-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh de Tonreau View Post
she doesnt need a team heal. it was just about shield bashing anyway.
Ive saved so many teamates with that heal sheild combo what are u talking about


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DreMLoK

Senior Member

03-17-2013

i wished she could have some on hit damage as incentive to use the passive on champions, but this might not be the case, im sad now, wanted to try nashor on her


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DemiluniS

Senior Member

03-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Healurownbum View Post
Thats your opinion i disagree i dont like the new Karma. Hell its not even a new Karma is a new champion with a old champions name.
yeah, that's my opinion and I can express it, you can't do anything about it


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DemiluniS

Senior Member

03-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Liljaywaun View Post
Ive saved so many teamates with that heal sheild combo what are u talking about
now you gonna save a teammate with the shield that also gives speed boost, and if it's not enough you can use your Q to slow the enemy and W to root him, stop crying about her ****ing aoe heal, she getting an aoe shield which is much better


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DemiluniS

Senior Member

03-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cypherazul View Post
How is Karmas team heal being taken away? It is THE reason she was effective in team fights. I think they just took her out of contention for a solid support and made her a solid mid or top. R.I.P. Support Karma
I wanna punch you


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Featherfox

Member

03-17-2013

I made this post in another thread, but I want to post it here as well. I'm clearly not understanding the position as to why Karma should remain the way she is now - and I honestly do want an answer to this question. To that end - here's the post. I warn you, it is long.

I don't want circular arguments, I don't want to go back and forth about supports having money to buy items, to supports don't have money since they need wards. I'll present what I see here, and you can then tell me how the weaknesses I've experienced in-game when playing Karma can be off-set by anything other than the enemy's lack of awareness on how to play against her.

Karma's Passive: I'm never a fan of anything that relies on you risking your life in order to have a gain. However, as Karma's healing functions better the lower your health is, this passive works amazingly for her kit; the weaker she is, the harder she is to kill. Still, beyond the lack of awareness that people have over just how strong Karma gets as her life goes down (Free Rabadons - yay), when a person combats Karma with knowledge of how her other powers work, this passive does little to help her beyond desperate situations.

Still - it's a much better passive than Zyra's!

Karma's Q
Heavenly Wave: Range 400, Damage 70/110/150/190/230/270 (+0.6) magic damage in a cone
Mantra Boost: heal allies in the cone for 35/55/75/95/115/135 plus 5% (+0.02%) of their missing Health.

Sona's Q
Hymn of Valor: Range 650, Damage 50/100/150/200/250 (+0.7) magic damage to 2 targets (prioritizing champions)
Power Chord Staccato - Range 550, Damage (8 + 10 x Sona's character level) x 2

Lux's Q
Light Binding: Range 1175, Damage 60/110/160/210/260 (+0.7) magic damage to up to 2 targets.

Sona is revered as a lane-bully as a support champion because the poke from her Hymn and her Staccato is very strong. However, Karma deals slightly better damage until level 5. Lux, as a mid-lane opponent against AP Karma, obtains damage parity as early as level 3, and maintains damage superiority from that point on. Karma never regains her "damage edge" from level 1. Furthermore - range 400!!! The team-heal element is amazing, but it won't save you from a Fiddlesticks Ultimate - and it's definitely a poor team strategy to group up if the enemy has Amumu, Sejuani (I saw her referenced earlier on this thread), or other AoE CC/Damage compositions. At this point, I'll be reminded of Karma's E - which we'll be getting to in a moment.

Karma's W
Spirit Bond - Range 800 (yay!) Damage 80/125/170/215/260/305 (+0.7) magic damage
CC: enemy anchors are slowed by 10/12/14/16/18/20%
Buff: allied anchors move 10/12/14/16/18/20% faster
Mantra Bonus: double the effect of the movement speed modifiers.

Lulu's Q
Glitterlance - Range 925, Damage 80/125/170/215/260 (+0.5) magic damage
CC: slowing enemies hit by 80%

Lux's E
Lucent Singularity - Range 1100, Damage 60/105/150/195/240 (+0.6) magic damage
CC: slows enemies by 20/24/28/32/36%

Now this is an ability. I know other people like Karma's shields and fans, but this power is the reason I bought the champ, and was determined to learn support with her. The power this ray-beam has is incredible! However - the beam must be "tethered" to a target, either friendly or enemy. Also (and here's the nightmare people refuse to acknowledge) the beam only does damage to people who "cross" it. Tethering the beam on your enemy will do 0 damage to that enemy. If it weren't for this power specifically, Karma wouldn't even be able to get in range to hurt opponents as an AP champ. As a support, this is an excellent counter-gank tool, chase tool, and escape tool all built into one funky pink laser! This is the superior source of Karma's damage, and is rendered useless if the enemy understands just how the laser works. You can't target the laser on your enemy, you must "work" the laser so it "bumps" your enemy while it's stuck on something else. Thus, as a laning tool it's only useful for farming, and as a support tool it's more useful for it's CC than it's damage. The only time you'll even see potential gain from the damage on this ability is in teamfights - where the chaos of events may prevent the enemy from being aware of it's presence, or (hopefully even better) the laser can create a zoning tool to help shape the combat in your favour. Again, a lack of awareness on the ray's abilities by the enemy gives you a great edge, but a similar lack of awareness on your team can cause you to lose that same edge in battle.

Karma's E
Soul Shield - Range 650, Buff 80/120/160/200/240/280 (+0.8) damage absorbed
Mantra Bonus: 80/120/160/200/240/280 (+0.8) magic damage

Janna's E
Eye of the Storm - Range 800, Buff 80/120/160/200/240 (+0.9) damage absorbed
Buff 14/23/32/41/50 Attack Damage

Lux's W
Prismatic Barrier - Range 1075, Buff 80/105/130/155/180 (+0.35) damage absorbed, can be applied 2 times to the same target for a (potential) maximum shield absorbing 160/210/260/310/360 (+0.7) damage.

This is the power I see most loved by Karma fans - the powerful AoE nuking shield. Place this on your Malphite/Volibear/suicidal Graves and watch the enemy team cry as you unleash pain while keeping the initiator alive! As a support tool this power is incredibly strong, and the poke is nice too. However, as a mid-lane tool this will often be only as effective as Lux's shield. An enemy who's aware of the shield's use will know to keep their distance from all of Karma's powers. Karma will have an easy time farming using her mana-hungry abilities, but so will the enemy. Karma can use a combination of her shield and her fans to "prevent" last-hitting while clearing the minion waves, but doing so consumes all of her mantra points for effects that just dealt no damage to the enemy. The radius of Karma's explosion from her shield is only 300 - making this ability the shortest damage-dealing range of all her powers, and she has to spend a mantra point to unleash it. Despite it's decent damage, the laser outpaces the damage potential of this power, and doesn't even cost mantra to use. We've already covered the annoyance that power provides in dealing effective damage.

I actually chose different supports for a reason when demonstrating what Karma can do. Karma actually does the job of several supports in one kit - a powerful combination that's balanced by her short range. I have wrecked bot-lane with Karma before, and I've seen other Karma players wreck bot-lane with a variety of carries at their sides. However, in almost every instance I've watched/played in victory, the enemy either was unaware of Karma's range, or lacked the vision to predict Karma's next move. Since a support's primary role is vision, both these points are failures on the enemy, not a boost to the Karma player. Skill is a factor that can't be quantifiably judged (though we do try). Invariably, one player will always be better than the other, and if the Karma player is the better-skilled player, then there's little argument on who's going to win. My post here is trying to showcase what happens when skill is equal. The Karma player faces an opponent who understands the champ, and knows Karma's weaknesses. When skill is removed, Karma is revealed as a 300-range nuke champ who baits her team into AoE-based disasters that can mimic the abilities that other supports are revered for.

Furthermore, please note that I included the level-dependant advancement for a reason. Karma "loses" all level advantages early, and doesn't regain them until much later. There is a huge difference between a level 1 advantage and a level 9 advantage. Karma is dependant on keeping up with her enemy. If Karma is denied even slightly (by jungle pressure or just good counter-play) then Karma may never catch up. Her own kit creates an exploitable weakness due to her 6 level mechanic on her powers (as she has no "ultimate"). Also, note that Karma has no ultimate, while Lux has a quick-firing Final Spark, Sona has a Crescendo, Lulu has a Wild Growth, and Janna has a Monsoon. Karma gives up a "game changing" power, so she can do an extra 20 to 60 damage for an acquired "level 6" power.

Finally, the arguments about Mantra! Mantra takes 30/25/20 seconds to recharge, and up to 2 charges can be held in storage. Assuming max CDR (since I agree that supports CAN afford that amount while still supporting effectively with wards), Karma can reach 12 second recharge on her mantra. Also, Mantra can last for 8 seconds before the charge is wasted. Thus, clever Karma tacticians can squeeze out 3 Mantra charges in one teamfight. This allows for one shield nuke, one super-slow laser, and one heal. After that, Karma's done. If the laser is not how you wish to cripple the team, then you can save one mantra charge for a second heal. Still, Karma's finished after that - teamfight will almost always be over by then. Mantra is such a limiting factor with it's current count. Aside from one spectacular burst in a teamfight, it's rather weak when compared to laning or supporting. The 400 range on the heal is crippling, and requires Karma to expose herself as a support (while consuming mantra). The nuke on the shield is so close-range, that most support/carry compositions won't be in range of the nuke you use to shield your carry - thus mantra charges are pretty much reserved for healing while laning. In AP mid, Karma's in the same situation, unless she wants to farm with her shield. Doing that creates a golden opportunity for your opponent to strike you down, as one of your two preservation powers was used to farm.

I hope that as you read this post, you realized that I do love Karma as a champion. I enjoy her playstyle, but I see her weaknesses. These weaknesses, if known by the enemy, can't be compensated for. A jungler has to babysit AP Karma in lane to help her keep up (or if he's really good, get her ahead), which allows the enemy jungler to have free reign on wrecking top or bottom lane. As a support, Karma's short range forces her to be a heal/shield/slow support champion, which almost describes Lulu but with shorter range.

I left items out since bringing up items only made people angry that supports aren't buying wards (*sigh*).

Now, for your question. Taking all of the above into account, please elaborate how Karma isn't disadvantaged in season 3. Knowing her self-created damage deficiencies, and her crippling short range, please clarify how Karma is "amazing" beyond the enemy's lack of awareness in how Karma is played. Why doesn't Karma need to be changed?

tl:dr - There isn't one. This is a legitimate argument put forth to question why people don't want Karma's remake. I do not understand their position, and I am providing my logic in the hopes that civil discourse will reveal why Karma fans like her the way she is.

- Featherfox

References

- Source of Karma Information: http://na.leagueoflegends.com/champi...nlightened_one
- Source of Karma's AoE radius: http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wik...bility_Details
- Source of Sona Information: http://na.leagueoflegends.com/champi...of_the_strings
- Source of Sona's AA range and damage for Power chords: http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Sona
- Source of Lux Information: http://na.leagueoflegends.com/champi..._of_luminosity
- Source of Lulu Information: http://na.leagueoflegends.com/champi..._fae_sorceress
- Source of Janna Information: http://na.leagueoflegends.com/champi...e_storm_s_fury


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Healurownbum

Senior Member

03-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by DemiluniS View Post
yeah, and how many times you actually made your team to stand there and wait for your heal? she's getting a ****ing aoe shield with speed boost and a self heal, this is much better than a ****ing skillshot heal, stop crying!
I never made my team stand still its MY ABILITY its my thing to hit. And i havent had a problem with it yet. And do you rly think that shield is going to be as powerful as the heal? I dont see it happening a 600 shield on everyone with a speedbost and 600 aoe dmg? Yea sure and pigs can fly.


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Cypherazul

Junior Member

03-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Featherfox View Post
Blitzcrank
Leona
Lulu
Zyra

I'm sure these champs would love to challenge the above quote.

- Featherfox
Zyra, Leona, and Blitz rely on Root's, Stuns, Knockups, and Pulls. The reason they are good supports is completely reliant on cc and not based on them supporting and buffing their ADC. Lulu is a combination of light buffs and cc (lux is like this too) I am not saying those champions are bad supports. I am saying the great supports (in my opinion) are ones that have greater sustain in a lane.