@Lyte : The tribunal worries me

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Failbot Deploy

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Senior Member

03-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by ??? View Post
yeah, great system with autopunishers.


who is this illogical kid.

you son, should be more worried about losing your job with that thoughtflow.
Autopunishers fall into a vast minority. The only reason they even get attention is because they make a post about it. Take into consideration the thousands of others who vote in the Tribunal who actually judge and how they don't all make threads about their 18% pardon rates.
Also the autopunishers according to what they say eventually have their votes reduced in strength, in addition to the system that also according to them factors in a percentage of autopunishers.

Great system.

Also you should be changing your thought process. That kind of brutal negativity goes against the Summoner's Code you agreed to. At least that's what that check mark under your name signifies.


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Trudbuglar

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03-17-2013

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Originally Posted by ??? View Post
who is this illogical kid.

you son, should be more worried about losing your job with that thoughtflow.
I never see the guy I quoted post anything when he doesn't seem like a butt-devastated tool.


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Fomorian27

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03-17-2013

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Originally Posted by Montag View Post
False punish rates (when the Tribunal punishes someone who is on the better edge of borderline toxic) are controlled by crowd-sourcing judgement. No one player has the wisdom to see all aspects of a case, but lots of players have lots of perspectives and can get a 360 degree view of the case. We also tune pardon/punish threshholds specifically to minimize false punishes.
The 360 degrees seems to imply that different judges are given different random cases from the players history to judge. But the player if he is punished only receives one reform card.


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Montag

Player Experience Manager

03-17-2013
3 of 14 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fomorian27 View Post
The 360 degrees seems to imply that different judges are given different random cases from the players history to judge. But the player if he is punished only receives one reform card.
I'm specifically referring to different people with different value systems and experience evaluating the same content. You don't have to actually see different information to come away with a different assessment. But that's OK; those varied perspectives are exactly what we designed the Tribunal to take advantage of. Lyte mentioned something similar.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyte View Post
[...]If anything, it shows an amazing insight about what happens when dozens or hundreds of players analyze a case and vote with their own opinion. Some players will consider that some information is missing such as reports/game. Some players will consider that maybe something happened in Champ Select. Some players will take whatever evidence is in the Tribunal case as the only evidence. All players will analyze the case based on their own experiences, knowledge and backgrounds.

Combine all that insight together, and you get a pretty accurate result that matches a team at Riot that has access to all the information[...]


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Wirius

Senior Member

03-17-2013

Why? Why do you worry about this? What do you do in your games that would make you ever worry about being banned?


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IrrationalNoob

Senior Member

03-17-2013

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Originally Posted by Montag View Post
I'm specifically referring to different people with different value systems and experience evaluating the same content. You don't have to actually see different information to come away with a different assessment. But that's OK; those varied perspectives are exactly what we designed the Tribunal to take advantage of. Lyte mentioned something similar.
And that is awesome. Tribunal should be allowed to take advantage of different perspectives. I might not think that a little bit of swearing is punishable and someone else might think that any amount of swearing is punishable. That is fine.

However, we still really need pre game and post game chat in tribunal at the very least. How can I tell who was first pick and who was not? How can I tell which of the duo mids was troll? How can I tell if the guy insulted everyone and their mothers in post game chat? I can't.


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Mynt

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03-17-2013

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Originally Posted by Wirius View Post
Why? Why do you worry about this? What do you do in your games that would make you ever worry about being banned?
I'm more worried about the pressure it puts on the the players who aren't me. Every month or so, someone I genuinely enjoy seeing on the forums or would like to play with in games gets their account terminated. This system is slowly weeding out the most interesting individuals in addition to the most vicious. (RIP law T___T) The atmosphere in games now is a somewhat forced cheerfulness. The type of paranoid attitude humans exhibit when they know they are being watched.

Riot responds with "well, it's worth it to get rid of the actually bad apples." Is it? Angry words never upset me. But I feel the loss when players are unwilling to play creatively because they might get banned.


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Swampmajikk

Senior Member

03-17-2013

the thing that worries me is this community is completely out of control.
I'm not sure if I am just getting matched with an abundance of "toxic" players but it seems to me that it has become far too commonplace for trolls to roam in this game.
It is an accepted fact that there will be afks and feeders in games. No one is surprised by this idea. That is ok? Why in the hell is that ok!?

the tribunal is a half hearted effort at controlling a community that has simply gone over the edge. I don't know where you get your statistics but overall from what I can see a huge amount of players simply don't behave in accordance with the summoners code. It is more rare to get a game with 10 players who are polite and in it for fun than it is to get internal bickering, trolls, feeders and afks.

as for "trusting the community", if you had any idea what kind of community you really had you would NOT do this. Its absolutely insane to do that..
with how frequenly people are complaining about these things on the forums and most players understanding that the community is completely toxic I sincerely doubt that the tribunal is doing anything positive for the game. Even people outside of the community know how bad it is..

The tribunal needs to be seriously evaluated because with the amount of money you rake in on this game I sincerely doubt its your best effort..
And the community has proven time and again that it cannot be trusted.
You really need to start some smurfs that have no inkling of affiliation with riot and see how it looks from the player's stand point.. because this community is quite possibly the absolute worst out there right now.


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IrrationalNoob

Senior Member

03-17-2013

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Originally Posted by Wirius View Post
Why? Why do you worry about this? What do you do in your games that would make you ever worry about being banned?

The system puts a lot of reports on people who don't play strict meta. And I mean strict. I was threatened with reports in a game where I built zonyas on Janna for example. He went on and blamed every death he ever had on me etc etc.

I have never been banned or even warned but I have had friends get punished by tribunal.

Going into the tribunal is not encouraging. People are being reported because they pick something unconventional or play in a unconventional way.


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Montag

Player Experience Manager

03-17-2013
4 of 14 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by IrrationalNoob View Post
However, we still really need pre game and post game chat in tribunal at the very least. How can I tell who was first pick and who was not? How can I tell which of the duo mids was troll? How can I tell if the guy insulted everyone and their mothers in post game chat? I can't.
I absolutely agree with you that the Tribunal would benefit from pre- and post-game chat -- but it's lower in priority than things the player behavior team is working on now that will have a bigger impact on behavior. As an example, we just released new chat technology on the PBE that will limit chat for players if they start to get too toxic and require them to play a certain # of games to get full speaking privileges back. With lots of iteration, this has the potential to seriously reduce the need for bans in the first place, and that's just one piece of technology.

So I agree that more information would benefit Tribunal, and it should have more at some point, but it would be irresponsible of us to build a system that might reduce toxicity by 1% when we could put the same effort toward a system that would improve behavior by 10-20%.