So, about that Karma leak...

First Riot Post
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Dobyk

Member

03-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whyumai View Post
I just find it sad that LoL is losing a support.

Essentially from what I can see Karma is being pushed into a AP mid role.

Basically she'll be another Orianna or Lux.

Except we already have Orianna, Lux, Morgana (, etc) who can all do this sort of thing. Not to mention that Karma can already effectively mid.

I just don't see why you would change Karma if you're just pushing her to a role that she can already do.

What's the point of the change?

I think she is a better support now. More harass and zoning potential, much larger AA range, shield + buff is OP, and she has MORE CC now, which is brilliant. Because her Mantra is not a straighforward damaging ability, it gives her a tremendous amount of flexibility. Whether baiting under tower with Renewal, or initiating with Soulflare, or hasting her team or securing a retreat with Defiance, she has a lot of choices to make as a support, which is fun. If the CC numbers are high enough, she will be viable. They removed the sustain, so she is more of an aggressive, "set-up-kills" support rather than a sustain. Her only real counter I can envision is Taric, because of stun, tankiness, sustain.


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Amadaun the 0th

Junior Member

03-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Melancholy Exile View Post
Wouldn't you say that would make her less about karmic backlash and more about self-sacrifice or being fuelled by pain?
That is fair, and a good point, but I still would contest that flavor wise, it is an improvement from what she is currently getting.

More importantly, it has a similar feel to her old passive., and would encourage some interesting new gameplay.
Supporting you team by shielding yourself and intercepting skillshots, which cools down your ult?

This version of her new passive would also possibly allow multiple casts of Mantra in a single team fight, depending on how the player manages to mitigate the damage.
This would help encourage the edgy playstyle that I personally use when I play Karma, and improve how much she feels like her old self.


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ItemsGuy

Senior Member

03-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Melancholy Exile View Post
I actually had a decent response written up for that but, as the conversation moved on, I decided it wasn't really necessary any more and closed the thing. Shame.

You've given a very conclusive answer that explains your points and stands for itself so I'm not actually sure what sort of feedback you're looking for from me. My argument matters very little because it's about how I interpret her character and what her core themes were - points which have no real impact on the direction you two have chosen for her concept. As far as I can tell we weren't having any sort of disagreement of consequence.

Could you possibly explain what it is you'd like me to address?
Mostly the kit itself, as you have been doing so far. Theming, lore, etc.--all this stuff can be re-written. What matters is a product that uses whatever themes are available to create an understanding within the players, and provides avenues for readable and accessible counterplay in the process.

Like Peri said, I disregarded the lore (as it has nothing to do with gameplay--League of Legends is a video game first and foremost, so if lore has to change in the process, so be it) and used the tools at my disposal to create a readable champion with a defined purpose (to prevent an arms race, which relaunch Karma does) and intuitive gameplay and counterplay in the context of the theming put into play.

Also, don't get me wrong--I love lore, but it's at its best when it compliments solid gameplay (see: Vi, Draven, Darius, etc.). What a champion has done in stories is worthless, if that isn't reflected in gameplay. Rengar isn't just a hunter in his lore, he's a hunter in-game--that's why he's great!


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Melancholy Exile

Senior Member

03-17-2013

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Originally Posted by The5lacker View Post
...Huh? How does "Punishing people for their misdeeds (attacking Karma)" not invoke the thought of karma? How does "Sacrificing one's self to protect an ally (intercepting skillshots) and gaining strength from it" not invoke karma? It's a Karmic balance on BOTH SIDES! Enemies are punished for trying to destroy Karma, and Karma gains strength through her sacrifice!
In essence: Because making it about karma (Small k) takes the focus away from the themes of her own mental strength, determination and willingness to bear suffering that are hammered home through her lore. Rather than making her a tool of balance, a mediator and one who bore hardship without outwardly displaying her pain, it turns her into a tool of retribution who lashes out at those deserving of punishment. Karma draws her strength from within - her 'inner flame' - not from without.

Rather than showcasing her unwavering resolve and strength, you put the focus on the pain and suggest it is what fuels her.


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BestBilbo

Senior Member

03-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Melancholy Exile View Post
I actually had a decent response written up for that but, as the conversation moved on, I decided it wasn't really necessary any more and closed the thing. Shame.

You've given a very conclusive answer that explains your points and stands for itself so I'm not actually sure what sort of feedback you're looking for from me. My argument matters very little because it's about how I interpret her character and what her core themes were - points which have no real impact on the direction you two have chosen for her concept. As far as I can tell we weren't having any sort of disagreement of consequence.

Could you possibly explain what it is you'd like me to address?
No problem - ItemsGuy has done it already though I'd like to repeat and maybe make it even more clear.

The point of reworking a champion isn't 'making the champion completely like the old version just slightly different' - what I am trying to say is:

Just because you don't interpret her as a character that had little to do with 'karma' as a theme in the first place doesn't mean it shouldn't have been her main focus now. (please note I even agreed with you on this part, previously 'karma' was barely represented and only inner flame as her passive did that'

Riot's intention is to make a character that's thematically tied through visual appearance and playstyle. (something that isn't done now because her visual rework screams 'yin-yang', 'spiritualism' and all of the sudden gets a playstyle that has to do with 'tension and momentum'

My point being:

The current rework isn't tied thematically and thus is less readable because 'tension and momentum' is a very weird abstract theme to build a playstyle around, especially if the visual appearance is misleading in terms of having way other themes than the actual playstyle.

The Redesign is tied thematically because all of the themes that are incorperated in her visual rework are also converted into gameplay, thus being more readable, while providing plently of counterplay.

Currently, Riot's Skarma-kit is a kit that is just there for it's functionality, it mashes well together - the point is it just doesn't fit with Karma.

The Redesign I feel lives up to all aspects: Flowing kit, thematic design, readable design, counterplay whereas Riot's rework falls short on readability and thematic aspects.


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The5lacker

Senior Member

03-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Melancholy Exile View Post
In essence: Because making it about karma (Small k) takes the focus away from the themes of her own mental strength, determination and willingness to bear suffering that are hammered home through her lore. Rather than making her a tool of balance, a mediator and one who bore hardship without outwardly displaying her pain, it turns her into a tool of retribution who lashes out at those deserving of punishment. Karma draws her strength from within - her 'inner flame' - not from without.

Rather than showcasing her unwavering resolve and strength, you put the focus on the pain and suggest it is what fuels her.
That's one interpretation. And, well, Ionia is a wounded nation. As not only the leader, but a representation of Ionia, drawing strength from her pain makes thematic sense. Ionia has been through hell. And they're stronger because of it. And Karma should reflect this.


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Amadaun the 0th

Junior Member

03-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Melancholy Exile View Post
In essence: Because making it about karma (Small k) takes the focus away from the themes of her own mental strength, determination and willingness to bear suffering that are hammered home through her lore. Rather than making her a tool of balance, a mediator and one who bore hardship without outwardly displaying her pain, it turns her into a tool of retribution who lashes out at those deserving of punishment. Karma draws her strength from within - her 'inner flame' - not from without.

Rather than showcasing her unwavering resolve and strength, you put the focus on the pain and suggest it is what fuels her.

That is wonderful.
Now forget everything about her lore, and just look at how it would restore the play style that she has right now, and how it would fit her better as a support, as well as turning a gank on her into an opportunity for her to escape.

Jungler whips out of the bushes, enemies drop their kit on Karma, Karma's ult is ready for business and Karma has a chance to get out.


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Dobyk

Member

03-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by The5lacker View Post
That's one interpretation. And, well, Ionia is a wounded nation. As not only the leader, but a representation of Ionia, drawing strength from her pain makes thematic sense. Ionia has been through hell. And they're stronger because of it. And Karma should reflect this.

And she does this by gathering her inner strength, igniting her inner flame, and channeling that spiritual power (which is the new concept). It ties in very, very well in the Riot rework. Also, you could argue she still "punishes" enemies because her new passive forces her to hit enemy champions with abilities and AA in order to have a Mantra on lower cooldown.


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Melancholy Exile

Senior Member

03-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by ItemsGuy View Post
Mostly the kit itself, as you have been doing so far. Theming, lore, etc.--all this stuff can be re-written. What matters is a product that uses whatever themes are available to create an understanding within the players, and provides avenues for readable and accessible counterplay in the process.

Like Peri said, I disregarded the lore (as it has nothing to do with gameplay--League of Legends is a video game first and foremost, so if lore has to change in the process, so be it) and used the tools at my disposal to create a readable champion with a defined purpose (to prevent an arms race, which relaunch Karma does) and intuitive gameplay and counterplay in the context of the theming put into play.

Also, don't get me wrong--I love lore, but it's at its best when it compliments solid gameplay (see: Vi, Draven, Darius, etc.). What a champion has done in stories is worthless, if that isn't reflected in gameplay. Rengar isn't just a hunter in his lore, he's a hunter in-game--that's why he's great!
I'm a lore guy: No wonder we're at loggerheads

Honestly, I think I'm kinda done after, once again, being reminded of my own limited perspective on these things by yourself. I usually find that whenever I take an outspoken stance on things like this I focus on certain parts of it above all else and zone out a lot of the external forces that influence them, leaving me with a rather myopic view of these things. Thanks to that, I feel like it'd be a good idea for me to take a step or three back.

Maybe we can talk about this some other time but, for now, I can't help but realise how deep I've gone into this without a proper understanding.


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BestBilbo

Senior Member

03-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Melancholy Exile View Post
In essence: Because making it about karma (Small k) takes the focus away from the themes of her own mental strength, determination and willingness to bear suffering that are hammered home through her lore. Rather than making her a tool of balance, a mediator and one who bore hardship without outwardly displaying her pain, it turns her into a tool of retribution who lashes out at those deserving of punishment. Karma draws her strength from within - her 'inner flame' - not from without.

Rather than showcasing her unwavering resolve and strength, you put the focus on the pain and suggest it is what fuels her.
No offense - by no means am I trying to sound condescending or hostile with the following, just going to just be as clear and bland as possible:

The well famous 'READ LORE NOOB' argument.

If you are saying people should read the lore of every champion before they actually understand why things work why things work, you are giving people homework instead of creating a design everyone gets the purpose of when looking at it in an instant.

Let me include a Red quote to back me up:

Quote:
Originally Posted by IronStylus View Post
Scion is an interesting case. Absolutely, the dude needs a visual update BADLY. Grumpy Monkey has some ideas here, some very good ideas. I agree that he fits into that weird area that some older champions fall into, where the visual theme doesn't really match the look. Scion wields a giant axe, one which, by today's standards, you'd expect to be chopped in half with. But, as has been mentioned, he's more of a Mage. Same thing goes for Mordakieser, big mace dude you'd expect to be bonked on the head by, instead he casts a lot of spell and.. nabs your ghost?

Meanwhile, these days, we want to create a fantasy that people can easily buy into. Darius is a proper axe dude, he wants to chop you with said axe, and as him you want to chop people down with said axe.
Understanding why Mordekaiser is so confusing requires us to read his lore - it's Burden of Knowledge and hurts the readability of his character and thus the accesability and structural integrity of the game.

Also Sion - you expect to be chopped into pieces but ends up magically stunning you and magically shielding himself, which doesn't have anything to do with 'Undead Warrior' as his theme. What happens? He's lore dependant aka 'less readable' aka 'burden of knowledge' - this is the single line in his lore that makes up for these weird abilities in his kit:

'Sion's reanimation actually bestowed new powers on him and increased the potency of his existing abilities, making him even more of a terror to behold on the battlefield.'

The sentence doesn't make Sion more awesome or contribute to his personality or character as a whole, it's purely there to justify the fact he has some weird unreadable stuff in his kit you wouldn't expect him to have.

Hence with the Redesign we've said it's just better to make it as readable as possible and thus get rid of the entire current lore-dependance of Karma - making her readable right from an instant as all of her abilities would work towards the goal of 'karma' or 'what goes around comes around'

Like Darius and what IronStylus says himself - nobody's forcing you to read the lore of Darius in order to understand how he works, right from the get-go you get he's going to be smashing and beating people up with that axe and that's what he's all about.