So, about that Karma leak...

First Riot Post
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North Crusade

Junior Member

03-16-2013

I'm always blown away by how much Riot really cares about their fanbase!

Great job!


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SirLapse

Senior Member

03-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
Quite frankly, having a kit that encourages you to be a low health to be more effective is both counter intuitive and troll-ish.

There are a few cases where it has worked (Olaf/Tryn) but only because of how limited they are by their melee nature. A ranged caster (a squishy concept) isn't the right place for that kind of mechanic. I appreciate how much you care, but that's not a great expenditure of our design and player-education dollars.
@ ItemsGuy
Even though I wanted to avoid outright saying this, it is true. I was going to elaborate on how it encourages low hp and potentially makes her just jump to a jungle camp, decrease hp, and just go to other champs and support like there's no tomorrow, but I was saved from the wall of text. Abusing that concept of her current passive has been done many times before, and with your kit, it really benefits that sort of play. The passive would start to stack, and your build encourages that they don't attack (and if they aren't focusing on the shielded champ, they'll focus on Karma. If they can't kill her, then if she stays in lane for a bit longer, she'll massively boost the other champion).

I just want to add that shielding a champ all day seems really boring. Yes, you have to be timely. But there's just no real merit to playing her if you're practically going to be a sitting duck for the enemy, since they can bait you so much more easily with that kit.
Ex: They head for the opposing Karma. All of a sudden, they cancel out of it and wait for her skill to come off. They can also attack minions to make you jumpy and allow for smartcasts to be your worst enemy.

Just the central play of shielding and working off of the shield seems like you're not really fighting. There's no problem with the theme, it's just that the play style has problems with consistency thanks to a lack of offense. I doubt that you'd want to waste your Mantra damaging an enemy once every 30 seconds because they're paying more attention to farm or have baited you into choosing who to defend. Your ally would have to be right up with you all the time to avoid this, and restricted gameplay means abusable loopholes (Fiddlesticks' E or Blitzcrank's Q as nice examples). Even if you moved the shield to your ally who just got caught, they can simply aim for you instead (since Q will be on CD) and bombard you with skills freely (coordinated teams will get a kill from either of you). The last thing would be the enemy jungler. If you're out to protect your ADC without a speed up or an always available deterrent, you're going to have a tough time.


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KyliaL

Member

03-16-2013

riot lets see some pics of that sun goddess and sakura <--can't wait to see.


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ZapaSenpai

Junior Member

03-16-2013

Wow Your lies about my karma are mother f'ing offensive. Karma Currently kicks freaking ass with any melee champ bot if you build her cool down. They change the Q like this and its a different freaking champ. If you play high skill you can flip the tables of most team fights. Also karma's ability to do a little burst of damage combined with sustainability means that she is freaking god for harass, and assists.
No aoe heal? Thats jacked.

Any questions? Consult my match history.


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KyliaL

Member

03-16-2013

she still has baiting potential though which keeps me somewhat happy.


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Melancholy Exile

Senior Member

03-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by The5lacker View Post
Players have a choice. Either attempt to take out a low Karma with a second burst, or stay back and simply harass her out of lane. Karma's bonus AP only really mattered when enemies attempted to commit to a fight: Despite her AP bonus, her ranges are low and she can very easily be out-harassed, and shields don't last long. A Karma could quite easily be brought to the point of being unable to shield herself adequately when an opponent does decide to commit to killing her, but on the flipside, committing too early often earned you a face full of bursty shields and fan blades.

Dodging a skillshot is NOT counterplay. That's like saying "Not dying" is counterplay. Or really, "Not ACTIVELY HELPING the enemy" is counterplay.
A choice, yes, but why is it an "interesting" choice and, more importantly, where exactly is the counter-play?

Like I said: The counter-play to Karma's passive is either to kill her outright or simply avoid fighting her unless you're absolutely sure that you can secure the kill through her passive. You yourself are making it sound like her passive is largely reliant on her enemies making mistakes and overcommitting to truly be effective and, lets face it, a gameplay mechanic that relies on players misjudging how their enemy is can hardly be said to be well designed. Much like my example, the 'counter-play' to Karma's passive is largely "Don't do stupid things".

The point I'm trying to make is that new Karma will benefit greatly from enemies who she can regularly, and safely, harass. If you play a lane that limits her offensive capabilities, or simply learn her patterns and bait her abilities, you can keep her Mantra on cooldown for a longer time. Not getting hit is always a good idea, sure, but her passive encourages you to avoid engaging her in repeated trades and to either limit how frequently she can hit you over time or to simply go for big meaningful attacks. If you give her less chances to even try and proc her passive she'll suffer for it - how you go about doing that is the measure of your counter-play.

As you seem to be putting it, the "counter-play" to her old passive was simply not fighting on her terms unless you were sure you would win. New Karma doesn't have to worry about that so much because she can go on the aggressive at full health without worrying about her passive going to waste. She wants to play aggressively, and land as many skills as she can, because successful and regular trades let her make more big and influential plays. It's no longer simply a matter of having a passive that only works in a specific circumstance and when the enemy play into your hands, she can actually adapt to how the enemy plays and they can act to limit her gains.


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FrozenMistninja

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Member

03-16-2013

If you want Riot To Keep the FANS that Karma holds as weapons, In some form or another, taunt, joke, recall, dance, revival then please keep posting. Riot doesnt understand that the FANS she holds are a symbol of all of the old Karma Players! Because we are The FANS. If you are in the cult of Karma DieHards, then lets get keep letting Riot know! Riot has a very nice history of helping us out when we let them know what we want! Keep the fans in some form Riot, we supported what many called an unfinished champion for 2 years, so please make this sacrifice for us and show us you support the minority of us as well!


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Glaedien

Senior Member

03-16-2013

So just gonna repost what I wrote elsewhere~

Ok, to start off, I've only played Karma since December, but since I only started LoL back in September (I think), I've had Karma for a significant amount of time relative to how long I've played.


I've enjoyed her current play style, it's a bit difficult but a lot of fun. Kinda nice when you can show the people you're grouped with a champ they've rarely (or never) seen before.

That said, I am pretty excited for the rework. But I do agree with the sentiment that it doesn't feel like she has a passive anymore. I've had a bunch of fun sticking around at 50 HP and letting my initiator destroy with a bit of help from a 600 dmg nuke/shield. I can't see the new passive really feeling like it has an impact on gameplay (of course, We don't have any numbers for ult cd, or how much the passive actually reduces it by.)

With what little information we have though, it really feels like her passive should be part of her ult and then have an actual passive. Maybe something like a scaling passive that periodically gives a + AP buff that's consumed upon her next Q, W, or E use? Something like 5+(1.1*level) AP. roughly 25 AP buff at lv 18 that's only available every what, 20, 30 seconds?

Rough idea, and probably pretty imbalanced, but at least it'd feel like something.

Actually, reading back, this just sounds like her old mantra, only adding power instead of new effects. I don't know if that's a bad thing or not

/repost.

Again, I'm definitely looking forward to the new Karma, but based on what information we have now, her passive really does feel underwhelming. A big part of this rework was to make up for the fact that Karma's ult really didn't feel like an ult, don't let her new passive fall into the same sad role.


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GoliothOnline

Senior Member

03-16-2013

So now... Karma is Lux + LB's kit... I dislike. She was unique, she was played well in the hands of competent players who bothered to play her thoroughly... Now you just killed her.


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Appull

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Senior Member

03-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
Quite frankly, having a kit that encourages you to be a low health to be more effective is both counter intuitive and troll-ish.

There are a few cases where it has worked (Olaf/Tryn) but only because of how limited they are by their melee nature. A ranged caster (a squishy concept) isn't the right place for that kind of mechanic. I appreciate how much you care, but that's not a great expenditure of our design and player-education dollars.
I'm sorry I understand what you're trying to say. But obviously it was a great expenditure. You created a champion that people love so much we have 400 pages fighting you to keep it. We clearly like the character and want to keep this type of high risk high reward playstyle. It is a great addition to other types of champs riot has, shouldn't you be spending those dollars to expand instead of contract. There are already champions that fill the role this new kit is for but there is no other champion that fills the role of Karma.