So, about that Karma leak...

First Riot Post
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Amadaun the 0th

Junior Member

03-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
*writes this down into his 'ideas for future evil' notepad...*
I'm so glad Riot is focusing on in-staff jokes, rather than responses from Karma's player-base.


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Whyumai

Senior Member

03-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by GonefishingX View Post
Dear Riot,

How to fix Karma;
her W slows 25% - 50% and speed up allies by 10 - 20%
Mantra'd W stuns any enemy who passes through the tether.

I have now fixed Karma
I don't agree.

Karma needs a functional peel. A stun on her W would be so situational that it would be really difficult to peel an assassin off your ADC .... particularly as you need that peel to be almost instantaneous. It's the problem that will occur with the new Karma's root. I don't need a root in x seconds time when my ADC is dead and the assassin turns to me. I need it before my ADC dies. That's what support Karma is missing.

Taric has it,
Nami has it,
Lulu has it multiple times,
Sona has it,
Janna also has it multiple times,
Soraka kinda has it (silence isn't that good as a peel but it's better that nothing)
Leona has it
Blitzcrank has it
Fiddlesticks has it
Alistar has it multiple times
Thresh has it
Orianna has it
Zyra has it
even Nunu kinda has it ....

Karma just puts on black eyeliner and screams at the enemy assassin LEAVE MY ADC ALONE!!!

Attachment 637928

.... it's the real reason she's not a good support. It's what she's lacking to be a good support. Every AoE slow in the game won't help her save her ADC. It's what every other support has that Karma doesn't. This new remake is pushing Karma further and further away from being a support. She's been streamlined away from the being a support. She's not going to be an aggressive support after this remake because she still wont' be able to effectively support. She's going to be a AP mid/AP top. Which is basically what she is now. That's the problem. This remake achieves nothing other than a visual upgrade.


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gartho33

Junior Member

03-16-2013

Quote:
I'm so glad Riot is focusing on in-staff jokes, rather than responses from Karma's player-base.
all work and no play means really bad game... at least they have a good time with there job.


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Xshu Bastion

Junior Member

03-16-2013

Could we get an official statement regarding Karma's change from a lithe, somewhat realistically proportioned woman to... Ahem, the look people tend to think of when they imagine female champions in LoL? I was happy to see a champion who wasn't falling out of her top with Quinn, and I'd heard Riot was going to be attempting to incorporate more body types and variation in general among their champions. Sure, you can say that the Legacy skin is there for people who prefer her old look, but the bottom line is that once the skin out out of the store, you're replacing a smaller breasted, modestly dressed champion with ANOTHER champion who has big breasts/hips and a willingness to show them off. Frankly, as a female player, this game is starting to make me a little uncomfortable. That's not something that happens to me easily.


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Zovea

Senior Member

03-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by GonefishingX View Post
Mantra was supposed to allow her abilities to do unique things and change how they interact with both allies and enemies, the Mantra forms for both her new Q and W are just simple boosts.
This is the biggest Quality of Life nerf to Karma.

From what I understand her shield is a static aoe shield. I hope instead of some stupid mechanic that only lets karma protect an area of the field, it applies the shield to allies without limiting them to remaining in the AoE.


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ItemsGuy

Senior Member

03-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by SirLapse View Post
As for your redesign, I have one question for you. Where is the balance? All of the skills you added had passive effects that gave exponential bonuses which are relatively easy to fully abuse in not only team fights, but dedicated skirmishes.
Q- Passive effect that only increases with AP. This passive is temporarily boosted upon activating the ability.

W and E- The effects of a 5-stack ability would be equal to 150% of a normal ability. Consequentially, an ability used without those stacks would be much weaker. Also, these stacks are entirely controlled by the opposition--if you don't attack a target marked by Karma's Seal, you don't add stacks. The abilities themselves also have cooldowns, and consume the passive stacks upon use.

Quote:
Not to mention that Mantra causes such an imbalance of major CC effects. All with a Mantra that can have lowered cooldown for her passive and CDR, along with no charge penalty.
Please read Mantra carefully.

R: Mantra (available at level 1, can be leveled up 3 additional times to increase charge generation rate and the effects of the Mantra Bonus)

-Karma's next ability within 8 seconds gains an additional effect. Karma can store up to 2 Mantra charges, gaining one every X seconds, affected by cooldown reduction. Mantra may be used twice in a row to affect the next two abilities.

This is no different from the version of Mantra currently on live. It does not decrease cooldown upon Karma landing an autoattack.
Quote:
  • [1] Your passive. You added potentially a second passive on her, and you even stated that you have it at the start of the game, along with your original passive. That'd be fine if it wasn't broken according to your skills.
  • Redesign!Karma only has one Innate--Inner Flame, which grants her bonus AP depending on how close to death she is. The passive effect of her Q is only active once the ability itself has been ranked up, and even then, it's only an effect on her if she is affected by her own Seal--if she moves it onto somebody else, she loses the passive retribution damage, and the marked ally gains it. I'd also like to know why you claim that it's broken in the context of her other skills--you've done a great job at expressing your concerns, but you need to give me the reasoning behinds them in order for me to satisfy this problem completely.

    This is important, because if you can point out why something is problematic, it gives me a good idea of how to fix it.

    Quote:
    [2] Your Q. As not only being a spell shield, but a spell returner, that leads to an early game domination for skirmishes. It would have to have very low AP scaling for it not to be OP just from the normal effect of potentially a minimized Thornmail passive.
    -The "spell return/shield" aspect is only a part of her Mantra, which has a fairly lengthy cooldown per charge without CDR and at early ranks (so no "early game dominance")

    -The low AP (and higher base) would be more due its relatively frequent usability (on the active part); there are many factors to take into account, and in the end, these would ultimately dictate the base and scaling.

    -The mini-thornmail (which is more like a magic Defensive Ball Curl) is controlled by the attacking player--don't want that damage? Don't attack the champ with the seal (or alternatively, if you're a physical damage-dealer, prioritize AD over attackspeed if it's giving you a problem). I also mentioned that I'm entertaining the idea of giving it a higher initial value but diminishing returns, if it proves to have too great an effect in longer fights.

    Quote:
    [3] Your W. Again, it would need very low AP scaling to not be OP. It applies multiple CC effects with Mantra, and silence is supposed to be on a stand-alone for every champ that uses it. You basically added a Rylai's to the skill along with a silence.
    Not necessarily--it's only at full power when it has 5 charges to consume, and these charges are controlled by the opponent (or a Karma with very clutch timing against a skilled opponent). And again--these CC effects (both "soft" CC, there are no stuns or displacements involved) are associated with Mantra, which has a cooldown and is meant to be a fairly clutch ability that's saved for when your opponent is going all-in. Also, this silence/slow would only effect enemies around the marked ally, so if you don't want to be slowed and silenced, don't be around that guy.

    Also, keep in mind that only the longer silences are single-target--single-target effects are generally allowed to be stronger than multi-target ones, which is why Cho'Gath's silence has a lower duration than Garen's and Kassadin's. The same case would apply with (R)W.

    Quote:
    [4] Now your E. Also like W, it would need very low AP scaling. The 5 charges can literally mean 5 AA, and they aren't removed even if they're no longer on the champ it was placed on. With that applying on W and E, that allows for major abuse as mentioned before. The main problem is that the heal would be available even without Mantra, something that the original Karma didn't have. The ability to reduce damage further and heal all at once cannot be considered balanced unless it's on a very low AP scale.
You say that these will "need" low scaling, but you haven't really gone out of your way to elaborate on why they would.

The charges are acquired upon damage taken, so Karma is rewarded for placing her seal on enemies that are taking some heat. They also stick with the seal when it changes targets, so Karma players are not punished for switching the seal around.

I'd also appreciate some elaboration on the "abuse"--like I said before, these abilities aren't nearly as powerful or impacting as a "regular" ability, due to the fact that they can be empowered by the charges. If you could tell me what this "abuse" is, I think it would allow for a greater mutual understanding--it's great that you're pointing out issues you have, but I can't really make any move the rectify them if I don't know why they are issues and how they would negatively impact gameplay.

E's heal is largely reactive--as it cannot be used to generate "infinite sustain" (as Soraka's can), and should be used at full charge to maximize its mana and cooldown efficiency. Karma's old heal allowed her to heal whenever Mantra was up, regardless of whether her ally was taking risks or not. Which also brings us back to the fact that a mantra charge has a cooldown attached to it--(R)E would only be used in sticky situations, as it is designed to use in sticky situations due to the only additional effect being damage mitigation.

Also, keep in mind that Karma's Q, W, and E are allowed to be more powerful than the basic abilities of other champions, due to various factors, but primarily the fact that her ultimate is only capable of empowering them. She doesn't have a teamwide stun/nuke like Sona, or a global heal like Soraka--each of her Matra-boosted abilities is allowed to be as powerful as about 33% of an ultimate, due to their naturally higher power level and the fact that her ultimate serves to increase their power.

As long as 100% is maintained, powerlevel is not a problem.

Quote:
All-in-all, your Karma redesign basically makes a late-game Karma almost unstoppable unless the AP ratios on moves are extremely small. The implied range of the second passive seems to be 850, which is pretty huge. With Mantra and being active for most of the game, the effects are too strong on those skills even if the damage potential is low. I can also note that it says "damage," not differentiating minions with champs. If it is restricted to champs, minion waves will never be stopped by Karma unless you have great attack speed.
You also have to majorly note that it would make an early game Karma very very very weak, since ratios aren't adjusted as you level the skills. Life-steal champs like Irelia and Xin Zhao seem to just laugh at the setup if it's on very low ratios, and since your setup has no escape of any kind, summoner spells have to be wasted more frequently. Whatever you create has to combat with the meta, and I don't see this being viable on an early-game standpoint, nor do I see it working out if the Karma is behind.
If you could, I'd like you to re-read the redesign very, very carefully. I feel that there are some major things you are misunderstanding (such as the fact that Mantra's cooldown is not decreased by autoattacking) that get in the way of a proper grasp of the matters at hand. Once you've broken that down, I'd appreciate it if you would take every issue you've found with it, and explain why it is an issue. You've pointed out these perceived problems (which, again, are likely affected by misinterpretation--which may be also my fault, as there could be things I need to clarify better), but you haven't pointed out why they are problems, so you're not really giving me anything to go on here.

I appreciate your input, but if you could elaborate a bit more, that would help a great deal.


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Alyssian993

Junior Member

03-16-2013

Im just wondering... If classic Karma's skin get upgraded, the other skins will be rebuilded too? I mean, I have Sakura Karma skin and I want to know if the skin model will be changed.


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Dobyk

Member

03-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alyssian993 View Post
Im just wondering... If classic Karma's skin get upgraded, the other skins will be rebuilded too? I mean, I have Sakura Karma skin and I want to know if the skin model will be changed.
Yes, of course, it's a full visual overhaul! When Karma arrives in PBE in early next week hopefully we will see how the Sun Goddess and Sakura Karma have turned out


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BattleMageFTW

Junior Member

03-16-2013

Omg This Is GREAT!! Karma will be much more played now!!


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Mohzar Kite

Junior Member

03-16-2013

The root is very counter-intuitive since you would really be using it to peel, and if they are running at your ADC then you would have to run away from the fight to attempt to save your ADC.

At the very least, Mantra should cause an instant root. The heal could be taken off the enemy cast to balance for the change and given to the allied cast instead, so that a Mantra bond to another allied champions heals you both over the duration.