So, about that Karma leak...

First Riot Post
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SirLapse

Senior Member

03-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by gartho33 View Post
@ SirLapse

this may be true.... but she is now no better than a bursty mage... support is no longer her tag any more than thresh or lux.... give her heal back and we have a support... not a moment sooner than that one will karma hold any of her now wonderus glory.
I think it just primarily shifted her from "heal support" to a "damage support," which the current meta just seems to benefit loads from. I'm going to set this straight: I like the changes, but I am not saying that they are perfect. The heal has saved my life more times than I can count. But that Inspire skill is one that hit a nail as to where a problem lied in.

The major problem I'm seeing is similar to a DMC to DmC effect really. "I don't like the new design." "OMG the way to play is going to be BORING now!" "I wanted the changes to be like [THIS], not [THAT]."

All the same arguments are being thrown out. The obscureness of Karma was due to her being UP, if that's fixed, many people will consider playing her. It's the reason why Twitch and Eve were changed as well. You're free to play her or not after these changes. The style that seems to have died was the healing strategy, which I think most die-hard fans wanted to keep more than anything.

To finish up:
Yes, I would like a legitimate heal. Actually, if they make it so Spirit Bond can heal allies, it would make TONS OF FREAKING SENSE. Add an animation with the fans just for kicks, I think a lot of people would reach an agreement that, even though this isn't quite the Karma they imagined, it still moved her forward instead of the opposite.


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Ginrai Enerjak

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03-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
Passive: Gathering Fire – Hitting enemy champions with Karma’s spells and basic attacks lower Mantra’s cooldown.
This presents a problem: Karma has no passive when not in the presence of enemy champions. That doesn't sound very fun.

-Ginrai Enerjak


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The5lacker

Senior Member

03-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ginrai Enerjak View Post
This presents a problem: Karma has no passive when not in the presence of enemy champions. That doesn't sound very fun.

-Ginrai Enerjak
Neither does Wukong, but that's not the point. The point is Karma doesn't have a passive. She has Mantra's mechanical workings masquerading as a passive.

The only other champions who have a passive that interacts only with their Ultimate are Jayce and Elise, both of whom are transforming champions. Karma is in a similar but different boat, because her passive is merely managing the cooldown of one of her abilities, rather than a speed boost to motivate frequent switching or spiders.


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Softspoken

Senior Member

03-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
Empowered by Mantra: Defiance – Enemies near the shielded ally are damaged while nearby allies are shielded and granted a short speed boost.
Okay sold. Exploding shields were kind of the #1 thing for me.

I'll miss the "Bonus AP at low health" just because of how great that was for baiting the uninitiated, but it's hardly a dealbreaker. Plus the new W looks great. Sort of like Ethereal Chains / mobile Drain when Mantra'd.

Edit:
Quote:
Originally Posted by The5lacker View Post
Neither does Wukong, but that's not the point. The point is Karma doesn't have a passive. She has Mantra's mechanical workings masquerading as a passive.

The only other champions who have a passive that interacts only with their Ultimate are Jayce and Elise, both of whom are transforming champions. Karma is in a similar but different boat, because her passive is merely managing the cooldown of one of her abilities, rather than a speed boost to motivate frequent switching or spiders.
But, Karma's mantra isn't exactly an ability in isolation: it has to be used with/as one of her other abilities. It is also available from level 1. So I'd argue that mantra ties through enough of her kit for this to work.

Also: For champions without a passive when there are no opponents: Irelia sprang to mind immediately. But as you said, that's not really the point.


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Tonelica

Junior Member

03-16-2013

Ok... I'm REALLY disappointed she won't have a heal for teammates. I loved that Karma had a heal as a support. I'm not a fan of this change...


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Diddle Me Then

Senior Member

03-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by FrozenMistninja View Post
If you want riot To Keep the FANS! In some form or another, taunt, joke, recall, dance, revival then please keep posting. Riot doesnt understand that the FANS she holds are a symbol of all of the old Karma Players! Because we are The FANS. If you are in the cult of Karma DieHards, then lets get keep letting Riot know! Riot has a very nice history of helping us out when we let them know what we want! Keep the fans in some form Riot, we supported what many called an unfinished champion for 2 years, so please make this sacrifice for us and show us you support the minority of us as well!
I said this earlier - but it's so late in the thread (p 346) that it's likely going to get drowned out and ignored anyway. :-\

Quote:
Originally Posted by HugoBangBang View Post
This might seem a bit silly... But considering Karma was one of my favorite champions when I started playing League of Legends the fans were kind of a big deal to me too. I'm not asking you all to magically change everything and thus get fans BACK to her VU.

But would it be too much to ask that when she dances, taunts, cracks a joke or whatever - that she at least pulls her fans out during at least ONE of those animations?.. At least then there would be a reminder of what originally made Karma...well... Karma...


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Zovea

Senior Member

03-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gen Nakazora View Post
PS, since this was posted before I finished. Your point is kinda invalid with Nid, if you are arguing against heals. She does have one after all.
My point was that every champ that can shield or heal an ally is considered a support. The reason phrased it like that was because I thought Shen and Galio were exclusions.


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BestBilbo

Senior Member

03-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by SirLapse View Post
As for your redesign, I have one question for you. Where is the balance?
I'm glad to see you haven't argued about lack of theme or readability about the Redesign - that's great, however it seems that you dislike the redesign due to the fact that you think it is unbalanced.

That's no problem, I believe ItemsGuy is currently writing a response to your 'accusations' concerning the redesign, hopefully he can convince you the design can perfectly be balanced and thus eventually passing as a design that succeeds in delivering Karma as a thematically tied champion while being readable and while being balanced/providing plently of counterplay.

I guess we'll both have to wait for ItemsGuy's response.


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FrozenMistninja

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Recruiter

03-16-2013

If you want Riot To Keep the FANS that Karma holds as weapons, In some form or another, taunt, joke, recall, dance, revival then please keep posting. Riot doesnt understand that the FANS she holds are a symbol of all of the old Karma Players! Because we are The FANS. If you are in the cult of Karma DieHards, then lets get keep letting Riot know! Riot has a very nice history of helping us out when we let them know what we want! Keep the fans in some form Riot, we supported what many called an unfinished champion for 2 years, so please make this sacrifice for us and show us you support the minority of us as well!


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Arance

Senior Member

03-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
*writes this down into his 'ideas for future evil' notepad...*
Now introducing....

GROMDOR, THE TOWER TOSSER!