So, about that Karma leak...

First Riot Post
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Appull

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Senior Member

03-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by ihaveapotion View Post
Just keep it up constructively, dont let anyone demean us to be 'just upset' or 'whining'.
Keep up the volume.

Dont let riot make a grave mistake, we should be able to point out their flaws when there.
This kind of post is why I have been following hopefully all day. Riot even mentioned(more of complained) that Karma has the most devout following of any champion. And to quote warhammer 40k "5trillion screaming fanatics can't be wrong"

just has to use the quote for the pun, but the point is valid. There is a reason she has such a crazy following. Shouldn't they be taking advantage of that and making more champions with her kind of play style? If not only to sell more champs but to expand the type of play styles possible and teams that can be made. Nobody wants a game that is the same thing over and over. Even the pros are mentioning how the game is starting to get repetitive.


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Whyumai

Senior Member

03-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by GreetingsGoodbye View Post
I fail to see the "karma" in this Karma.

Now that everyone has seen where Riot has decided to take her, I will repost this clearly (thematically) superior kit which is the culmination of a few Karma fans who know what Karma should be. Of course, it's not perfect, and Riot could adjust it according to how they see fit, but this is much closer to the way it should have been:


Passive Yin State: Karma gains 2 points of Armor every time she is hit by a champion auto attack (max 150 armor), and 1 point of Magic Resistance whenever she is hit with a spell (max 75 MR). Karma gains 250 health if either of these bonuses become maxed (max 500). These bonuses are permanent to Karma in either state. While in the Yin State, Karma is surrounded by a white aura, in the yang state, a black aura.

Passive Yang State: Karma gains 1 AP whenever she is hit by a spell (max 100), and .05% Cooldown Reduction whenever she is hit by a Champion auto attack (max 20%). If either of these bonuses become become maxed, Karma gains 15 armor penetration (max 30). These bonuses are permanent to Karma in either state. While in the Yang State, Karma is surrounded by a black aura.

(Q) Heavenly Wave Cost: 70 / 75 / 80 / 85 / 90 / 95

Yin State: Karma sends forth hidden blades from her fans, healing herself and her allies in a cone for 55 / 75 / 95 / 115 / 135 / 155. An additional 5% (+1% per 50 ability power above 25) of health the targets are missing is added to the heal. Enemies caught in the cone are knocked back in the direction the spell was cast. The closer the enemies are to Karma, the further they are knocked back.

Yang State: Karma sends forth a wave of hidden blades from her fans, dealing 70 / 110 / 150 / 190 / 230 / 270 (+0.6 per ability power) magic damage to enemy units in a cone in front of her.

(W) Spirit Bond Cost: 65 / 75 / 85 / 95 / 105 / 115

Yin State: Karma anchors a white beam to an ally. The ally and Karma gain 20 / 22 / 24 / 26 / 28 / 30 % movement speed and 30% increased armor and Magic Resistance as long as they are anchored (max 6 seconds). Allies who pass through the beam gain also gain the movement speed bonus, and 15% increased armor and magic resistance for 3 seconds.

Yang State: Karma anchors a black beam to an enemy. The anchored enemy loses 10 / 12 / 14 / 16 / 18 / 20 % movement speed, 30% decreased armor and 30% magic resistance as long as they are anchored (max 6 seconds). Enemies who pass through this beam also suffer the movement speed penalty for 3 seconds, along with having their armor and magic resistance lowered by 15% for 3 seconds.


(E) Soul Shield Cost: 70 / 80 / 90 / 100 / 110 / 120

Yin State: Karma summons a white protective shield on an ally or herself that absorbs 100 / 140 / 180 / 220 / 260 / 300 (+0.8 per ability power) damage for 5 seconds. When the shield expires, it explodes in a large radius, healing all nearby allies for 55 / 75 / 95 / 115 / 135 / 155 health (+.5 per ability power).

Yang State: Karma summons a black damaging aura on an ally or herself that deals 50 / 70 / 90 /110 / 130 / 150 (+0.5 per ability power) damage every 1.5 seconds to nearby enemies second for 4.5 seconds. When the aura expires, it explodes, dealing 100/140/220/260/300 (+0.7 per ability power) damage in a small radius to nearby enemies. The aura will not explode if the champion carrying the aura is killed before the aura expires.

(R) Equity of Will -- No Cost

Equity of Will is the replacement ult to Mantra. Like Mantra, it is available at level 1. It does not require points to level up; it does so automatically at 6, 11, and 16.

Active: Allows Karma to switch between the Yin State and the Yang State, granting her spells different abilities depending on the State used. Karma may change her state once every 6 / 4 / 2 seconds. The state change timer is unaffected by cooldown reduction.


Why Riot pays no mind to something like this, I have no idea.
+1 looks good.

I could play support karma with this. I don't think I could play support karma with the upcoming changes


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ihaveapotion

Senior Member

03-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appull View Post
This kind of post is why I have been following hopefully all day. Riot even mentioned(more of complained) that Karma has the most devout following of any champion. And to quote warhammer 40k "5trillion screaming fanatics can't be wrong"

just has to use the quote for the pun, but the point is valid. There is a reason she has such a crazy following. Shouldn't they be taking advantage of that and making more champions with her kind of play style?
Exactly, variety is powerful in games like these, riot should stop trying to craft everything into the existing meta and widen the playing~style-field. People 'created a optimal meta not because the meta was a constant but because the champs formed it so, add different styles of play and the meta will evolve 'with it.

This is a lesson riot needs to learn.

Dont try to balance everything around a constant or you will choke the game out of ingenuity.


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ImpossibleGT

Senior Member

03-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by GreetingsGoodbye View Post
Why Riot pays no mind to something like this, I have no idea.
Because its not good. That passive looks like the mangle remains of a train wreck that went through a blender. Seriously just sit down and look at that passive you created:

150 Armor, 75 MR, 500 Health, 100 AP, 20% CDR and 30 Armor Pen for some unknown reason. Disregarding the fact that Karma with Armor Pen is just absolutely stupid, that is thousands of gold worth of stats free from her passive. That is just absolutely silly.


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Appull

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Senior Member

03-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by GreetingsGoodbye View Post
I fail to see the "karma" in this Karma.

Now that everyone has seen where Riot has decided to take her, I will repost this clearly (thematically) superior kit which is the culmination of a few Karma fans who know what Karma should be. Of course, it's not perfect, and Riot could adjust it according to how they see fit, but this is much closer to the way it should have been:


Passive Yin State: Karma gains 2 points of Armor every time she is hit by a champion auto attack (max 150 armor), and 1 point of Magic Resistance whenever she is hit with a spell (max 75 MR). Karma gains 250 health if either of these bonuses become maxed (max 500). These bonuses are permanent to Karma in either state. While in the Yin State, Karma is surrounded by a white aura, in the yang state, a black aura.

Passive Yang State: Karma gains 1 AP whenever she is hit by a spell (max 100), and .05% Cooldown Reduction whenever she is hit by a Champion auto attack (max 20%). If either of these bonuses become become maxed, Karma gains 15 armor penetration (max 30). These bonuses are permanent to Karma in either state. While in the Yang State, Karma is surrounded by a black aura.

(Q) Heavenly Wave Cost: 70 / 75 / 80 / 85 / 90 / 95

Yin State: Karma sends forth hidden blades from her fans, healing herself and her allies in a cone for 55 / 75 / 95 / 115 / 135 / 155. An additional 5% (+1% per 50 ability power above 25) of health the targets are missing is added to the heal. Enemies caught in the cone are knocked back in the direction the spell was cast. The closer the enemies are to Karma, the further they are knocked back.

Yang State: Karma sends forth a wave of hidden blades from her fans, dealing 70 / 110 / 150 / 190 / 230 / 270 (+0.6 per ability power) magic damage to enemy units in a cone in front of her.

(W) Spirit Bond Cost: 65 / 75 / 85 / 95 / 105 / 115

Yin State: Karma anchors a white beam to an ally. The ally and Karma gain 20 / 22 / 24 / 26 / 28 / 30 % movement speed and 30% increased armor and Magic Resistance as long as they are anchored (max 6 seconds). Allies who pass through the beam gain also gain the movement speed bonus, and 15% increased armor and magic resistance for 3 seconds.

Yang State: Karma anchors a black beam to an enemy. The anchored enemy loses 10 / 12 / 14 / 16 / 18 / 20 % movement speed, 30% decreased armor and 30% magic resistance as long as they are anchored (max 6 seconds). Enemies who pass through this beam also suffer the movement speed penalty for 3 seconds, along with having their armor and magic resistance lowered by 15% for 3 seconds.


(E) Soul Shield Cost: 70 / 80 / 90 / 100 / 110 / 120

Yin State: Karma summons a white protective shield on an ally or herself that absorbs 100 / 140 / 180 / 220 / 260 / 300 (+0.8 per ability power) damage for 5 seconds. When the shield expires, it explodes in a large radius, healing all nearby allies for 55 / 75 / 95 / 115 / 135 / 155 health (+.5 per ability power).

Yang State: Karma summons a black damaging aura on an ally or herself that deals 50 / 70 / 90 /110 / 130 / 150 (+0.5 per ability power) damage every 1.5 seconds to nearby enemies second for 4.5 seconds. When the aura expires, it explodes, dealing 100/140/220/260/300 (+0.7 per ability power) damage in a small radius to nearby enemies. The aura will not explode if the champion carrying the aura is killed before the aura expires.

(R) Equity of Will -- No Cost

Equity of Will is the replacement ult to Mantra. Like Mantra, it is available at level 1. It does not require points to level up; it does so automatically at 6, 11, and 16.

Active: Allows Karma to switch between the Yin State and the Yang State, granting her spells different abilities depending on the State used. Karma may change her state once every 6 / 4 / 2 seconds. The state change timer is unaffected by cooldown reduction.


Why Riot pays no mind to something like this, I have no idea.
This, I love this. I didn't even read through this all the way, this sounds like Karma and sounds like her thought invoking play style. I'd pick up a champ like this in a heartbeat.


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Appull

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Senior Member

03-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by ImpossibleGT View Post
Because its not good. That passive looks like the mangle remains of a train wreck that went through a blender. Seriously just sit down and look at that passive you created:

150 Armor, 75 MR, 500 Health, 100 AP, 20% CDR and 30 Armor Pen for some unknown reason. Disregarding the fact that Karma with Armor Pen is just absolutely stupid, that is thousands of gold worth of stats free from her passive. That is just absolutely silly.
It's intended to say magic pen. Man way to be a stickler on the one typo in a page long post. Also these numbers are examples mostly. Most of these are to high. But its also clear that anything we hand riot will either be super nerfed or dismissed. And nerfing this it would still be playable and very unique. Also you have to note those stats are gained over a very large amount of time, remind you of anyone? nasus, veig, thresh. At least he wrote a cap in. If veigers said max 1000AP would you have freaked at that?


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Mac2492

Member

03-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by MadhatClemens View Post
I don't understand why people are complaining about Karma's loss of heal. There are champions without heals that work fine as supports.

People are choosing not to look at the benefits (the increase of damage and the AOE SHIELD) over this fact. You don't need a heal so much when your support can initiate the fight in bot lane, tank the damage due to her healing chain, and deal enough damage to make your AD carry's kill so much easier.

Also, they are trying to encourage people to play her in different lanes. She had great damage before, and I doubt that'll be different.
The main point of concern for many is the complete change to her support style. They did give a heads up that she will play as an AP Support, but this change is hard to stomach for those who are used to the duality of her skills. Before, all three of her skills could be used offensively or supportively, often even both at once. She is now almost purely offensive support, with only E retaining duality. Her heal was also what gave her passive/sustain options. Shield-based supports tend to play more aggressive due to the short duration of shields. Thus, she is now an aggressive support instead of a "balanced" support (hurting and healing, shifting from disabler/enabler to a murderous caster upon nearing death). And it's okay that she's different. But she is different, so it's understandable that people are going to miss the old Karma.

Her reworked Q and E actually look fine from a support perspective, so I agree with you to an extent. An AoE skillshot slow is great, and the Mantra slow field is a situational life saver. Her E now boosts speed and can AoE shield/speed-boost on top of what it could previously do, so it's much better than before.

Her W is what I find problematic as a support. It requires you to stay near your opponent to continue dealing damage, and it requires you to be near them for the full duration to root. Karma has an AoE slow and a shield that boosts movement speed, so sticking close is not the issue. The problem is damage output and low defense. A support won't build damage generally, but raising the base damage would require lowering AP ratios (thus hurting AP builds). This means you have to stay close to deal mediocre damage and eventually root, when other supports have instantaneous roots/stuns that deal damage. You suggested using Mantra W to heal yourself up. This indeed works, but then you lose out on Mantra'd E, which seems superior in general for support, taking into account the increased cooldown on Mantra. Additionally, your priority is keeping your carries alive, not yourself. In the end, it feels like a support Karma will almost always use Mantra E and the situational Mantra Q. You will play in front as an aggressive support (like Leona/Taric) but without the tankiness, unless you want to sacrifice damage or use all your support mechanisms on yourself.

With Karma's original W, you would use it on allies and enemies almost equally often because there are times when you want to slow and times when you want to move faster. This was incredibly useful even ignoring damage (though the best Karma players can slow + speed up + damage by placing W on the right enemy and running in the correct direction). This gave the skill a wonderful complexity and made it incredibly rewarding, albeit with an absurd learning curve on top of being situational (original W is not perfect and is rarely Mantra'd). The new W lacks complexity and seems like a primarily carry-oriented skill by granting health only to Karma and increasing in damage when Mantra'd. What incentive is there for a support to Mantra this skill over E?

Of course, this is mere speculation. I'll wait to see how the rework plays on PBE before coming to any conclusions. To reiterate my tentative solution, perhaps allow W to also be cast on allies to heal over time and cleanse at the end of the duration. This gives the skill duality and a new complexity, enabling Karma to strategically time a cleanse and allowing her to stand behind her carry without two of her skills being useless. It also opens up Mantra W to supports in more situations, because you now have a large heal over time for you and your carry with a cleanse at the end. Clutch AoE shield, clutch dual heal+cleanse, or clutch AoE slow? Imagine slowing both enemies under tower, shielding + MS buff for your carry, then tower diving with a dual heal. Versus Q -> W -> R -> E all day err-day Karma support. Options are good. :3

Note: From an AP Mid perspective, W is completely fine. Laning phase you can afford to use all your support-mechanics on yourself, because it's 1v1. For teamfights your job is to go in and kill. Q to AoE slow, E on yourself then run in with a crazy hurt and heal beam. I can see the synergy. Now open up this sort of synergy for supports pretty please? <3

I'll make a full thread about this if I still feel it'd be a worthwhile change after seeing the rework in action, but until then I'll just sit tight and look forward to the rework. Despite my complaints and love for the current Karma (my slogan is "give me a heal or a shield and I won't let you die". Karma has both), I'm really looking forward to the rework and have high hopes. ^^


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GreetingsGoodbye

Member

03-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by ImpossibleGT View Post
Because its not good. That passive looks like the mangle remains of a train wreck that went through a blender. Seriously just sit down and look at that passive you created:

150 Armor, 75 MR, 500 Health, 100 AP, 20% CDR and 30 Armor Pen for some unknown reason. Disregarding the fact that Karma with Armor Pen is just absolutely stupid, that is thousands of gold worth of stats free from her passive. That is just absolutely silly.
As someone already mentioned, the numbers OBVIOUSLY need serious tweaking.

But, this is like the opposite to veigar, nasus, etc... instead of being rewarded for DOING damage, you are rewarded for TAKING damage...and in the process, the enemy is punished for doing damage to her.... karma, get it?

o.O


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FrozenMistninja

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03-16-2013

If you want riot To Keep the FANS! In some form or another, taunt, joke, recall, dance, revival then please keep posting. Riot doesnt understand that the FANS she holds are a symbol of all of the old Karma Players! Because we are The FANS. If you are in the cult of Karma DieHards, then lets get keep letting Riot know! Riot has a very nice history of helping us out when we let them know what we want! Keep the fans in some form Riot, we supported what many called an unfinished champion for 2 years, so please make this sacrifice for us and show us you support the minority of us as well!


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Appull

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Senior Member

03-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by GreetingsGoodbye View Post
As someone already mentioned, the numbers OBVIOUSLY need serious tweaking.

But, this is like the opposite to veigar, nasus, etc... instead of being rewarded for DOING damage, you are rewarded for TAKING damage...and in the process, the enemy is punished for doing damage to her.... karma, get it?

o.O
then flip it to when she does damage. But if you flip it she'll gain it much faster. This passive plays into the role of protecting people, if you do it well enough you're eventually gonna become the target. But I do agree that sounds weird...on the flip side riot did say they want more aggressive gameplay and this sounds like it will make players more aggressive (straws good sir, straws)