So, about that Karma leak...

First Riot Post
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Yami arashi

Senior Member

03-15-2013

OMFG dat FREAKIN WALL OF TEXT OMGWTFISTHATDUDE!!! D:


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ZeroSoulreaver

Senior Member

03-15-2013

Omg I can quote everything you say. This must mean I'm...


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BestBilbo

Senior Member

03-15-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by HarryOrunitia View Post
But you see, you're still going by the ridiculous assumption that I said/thought her previous design was perfect and very readable. I NEVER said that. I said like a hundred times in this thread that I UNDERSTAND WHY RIOT FELT THE NEED TO REWORK HER. I said I WANTED THE REWORK MYSELF AND I ASKED FOR IT MANY TIMES IN THE PAST I thought HER OLD DESIGN WAS FLAWED AND HARD TO READ FOR MOST/SOME PLAYERS AND IT DEFINITELY NEEDED TO BE REFINED.
This is the first time you've actually put it exactly like this and just the fact that you did keeps me wondering why you were defending her previous theme in the first place, you just admitted it needed to be refined because it is too abstract yet previously you've said 'Oh oh oh but it isn't abstract at all, buddy!'

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And you IGNORED every single time I said that, again making me sound in your replies like I was just crying for old Karma back. It's incredibly disrespectful, especially coming from someone who demands a word-by-word deconstruction and reply to every single one of their posts. Do you even read mine? Or are you going to just read my nickname and automatically assume "whiny karma fan who thought she was perfect and didn't need a rework" and formulate your reply accordingly?
Just didn't make sense for you to put so much defense in old Karma while you also can point out how much of a flaw she has been previously - I do read all of your posts :)

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Old Karma was a mix of themes. I personally don't think that's a problem, but you and the people at Riot clearly do. And I understand that. Does the new skin reflect her "new theme" better? Maybe.
I'd insert a big 'Yes' here for obvious reasons but I'm glad you even put in 'maybe' there at least.

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Again, matter of opinions. Do I like the "new theme"? No.
Great! This is indeed an opinion and I feel sorry for you that you don't like the new theme and visual appearance they have given her.

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"Spiritualist" was definitely a theme in old Karma, but not one of the major ones in my eyes. When I thought "Karma" I didn't immediately think "spiritualist", I first thought "classy matronly diplomat", "magical fans" and "duality". So, as someone who loved the old Karma, I obviously disagree with the choice of the base theme for the rework. And I think choosing ONLY that theme without at least adding a REFERENCE to her previous themes (fan recall animation being a pretty good example) is a bad idea because it excludes everyone who liked her/noticed her for other themes and reasons other than "spiritualist" or "paragon of Ionia".
Yep - as I have pointed out from the start I understand why'd you miss element of old Karma, yet again sorry to hear you don't like the fact she currently has to references at all.

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And, speaking of opinions, I personally think her previous/traditional design still very much expresses the themes "spiritualist" and "paragon of Ionia".
:)

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Her entire color scheme was based around the Taijitu you so love to mention, as opposed to a small Taijitu shaped arrangement of green jade dragons on her new "Ionian standard". Is "Taijitu" really readable from this design? I don't think so. I had trouble even noticing they were arranged in a Yin Yang shape at first glance, while the previous color scheme of her entire dress, fans and accessories was definitely more readable for me.
Indeed your opinion that the Taijitu is not that readable/outstanding, yet it is a fact the karma is entirely tied to it by all of the glows and tattoos on her body.

I'll give you this however - I feel that the old colors of her dress, the colors that are present on her traditional skin should/could be present on her new default to lay even more of an emphasis on her theme, they probably did not do that in terms of it not looking quite good.

Yet again they have probably needed to question themselves: want to sacrifice readability for a more visually appealing look or not?

But yeah, agreed, would be better to see those characteristic black and white colors on her dress regardless. I guess we could jump to the conclusion both skins have characteristic elements, yet I'm of the opinion that the new default does the job better regardless due to it laying more of an emphasis of where she's based on, showing more skin of her and looking more hinduism influenced, in my opinion giving me a much stronger feel of a graspable character.

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And her Ionian Mantle of Decorum, and the Ionian crest colors in her accessories definitely screamed "Ionia" to me. When I started playing, even without knowing either of their lores, or even knowing that they were both supposed to represent the same region, I immediately made the connection with Irelia when I saw Karma's design and especially her Mantle of Decorum.
That's quite impressive.

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And hey, every opinion on the matter is highly subjective. You can't decide how my brain is supposed to work and what connections it's supposed to make, what themes it's supposed to see in a certain design. And the same goes for you. It's just opinions and personal points of view. Saying that you're right because the majority agrees with you, or classifying your words as "hard, absolute truths" won't make them any less subjective, I'm sorry.
See how we've been able to jump to a conclusion? I feel we entirely managed to understand each other.

And despite the fact that I still want to claim I've always distinguishes facts from opinions which in reality you've indirectly confirmed by saying 'yes mix of themes indeed less readable' - which was one of my points, that she is more readable now than she was previously, again referring to my olaf, ashe argument, were less likely to be disagreeing about her new theme, it's way more obvious and therefore is more central and thus more readable, which is great.

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Oh, and rereading your post. What are you talking about? Since when is "Taijitu" associated with "green and glowing"?
Design decision to represent the entire importance of 'energy' or 'flowing energy' when it comes to spiritualism.

Darius theme is 'Warrior with Axe' - Sion's theme is 'Undead warrior with axe'

Darius revolves around his axe, Sion revolves around being an undead warrior and an axe.

Two theme's here that naturally mesh/mash (which one is correct? Trying to improve on my english here :P) - 'Karma/yin-yang' and 'Spiritualist'

They had to tie both of 'em together which I feel they've done a good job with.

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I'm sorry, but I've always thought http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...n_and_Yang.svg this was the most common representation. Never even seen a "green and glowing" version of it before. And look at it, same colors as her old default and her new traditional skin
If they would have dropped the spiritualist theme she'd probably just waving a banner around with an actual real black and white yin-yang symbol on it, they've chosen for these two dragons with green glow as spiritualist is still part of her character.

They're using the green glow to show a supernatural aspect, coupled with the taijitu which represents a spiritual aspect; since both the taijitu and Karma are glowing, they're visually tied together and one could come to the conclusion that the same energy in the crest of twin dragons is the same energy in Karma.

Thanks dude for this post, I hope you have a better feeling about all of this, I most certainly do!

Bilbo


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BestBilbo

Senior Member

03-15-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flytrap View Post
Holy quote war Batman!

This is why forums are ugly places.
I like to think the common 'OMG RETADER FUKK NOOB GO L2P THIS CHAMP ISNT OP LEARN TO COUNTER' short posts are way worse.

Just my two cents, though.


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Iratus

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Recruiter

03-15-2013

Wall of Text kicks your fainted interest for 9001 damage!
Your interest is a dead horse already, why keep beating it?


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chumbler

Senior Member

03-15-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by BestBilbo View Post
I like to think the common 'OMG RETADER FUKK NOOB GO L2P THIS CHAMP ISNT OP LEARN TO COUNTER' short posts are way worse.

Just my two cents, though.
No, giant quote wars and walls of text are worse, because you can at least scroll past the contentless posts quickly.

If you can't briefly state your point then you didn't have a point to state. "Keep it concise" should be like the first thing anyone should ever learn when writing anything, whether it's a forum post, email, paper, or any other kind of writing that isn't something that only you will ever read.


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GekkoST

Senior Member

03-15-2013

Soon we will have the rework of karma and it will somehow be a counter to Darius. Which of course means that as soon as Morello finds out it threatens Darius he will have it nerfed to the ground while he works on a "nerf" (buff) for Darius.

Moar stacks of bleed? yes yeeessss stack all the damages!


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Iratus

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Recruiter

03-15-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by GekkoST View Post
Soon we will have the rework of karma and it will somehow be a counter to Darius. Which of course means that as soon as Morello finds out it threatens Darius he will have it nerfed to the ground while he works on a "nerf" (buff) for Darius.

Moar stacks of bleed? yes yeeessss stack all the damages!
Considering Darius got nerfed because of bads, I don't see how Karma isn't already a counter for... Everyone.


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Scarizard

Live Balance Designer

03-15-2013
36 of 43 Riot Posts

Old Karma had issues. What were they?

Karma’s kit was in a weird place, but her ultimate was especially problematic. Her base abilities didn’t feel impactful and only felt effective when supercharged by Mantra. On top of that, when Karma had two charges of Mantra, we had to make both of them weaker to compensate for players double casting empowered spells.

The changes we made to Karma’s kit focused on making each decision fun and meaningful while giving her abilities the focus they needed to perform her intended role. We kept the “empowering”-type gameplay of Mantra, but instead of waiting around for it to recharge, Karma’s basic attacks and abilities now lower Mantra’s cooldown. This rewards aggressive play so you can “buyback” her ultimate. Also, we gave Mantra a single charge to pump extra power into each cast. We also made sure Mantra empowers Karma’s abilities in drastically different ways, leading to more impactful decision-making and a better feeling of accomplishment when you pull off the right move at the right time.


Why was she hard to place in team comps?

Karma had the offensive tools to support her team in small skirmishes but not the powerful defensive abilities she needed to protect a team. Also, her all-purpose abilities are so broad they never felt like the right choice in any situation. All in all, Karma lacked direction.


Why isn’t Karma fun?

The effectiveness of Karma’s abilities relied too heavily on your teammates knowing all their nuances. No matter how hard you were carrying with Karma, your teammates had to be just as good with her for you to be super effective. When an ally’s confused about whether or not he should run from or pass through your Spirit Bond, we probably made a mistake.


What did we like about Karma?

Despite all the Mantra hate we’ve got going on, we actually think the concept is pretty kickass. It’s unique and character-defining to old Karma, and augmenting her abilities with an immense surge of Ionian will is visually and thematically fun. We also liked how Karma could turn the tables on her opponents with abilities that provided defensive bonuses and had hidden offensive power. Finally, Spirit Bond’s “clothesline” gameplay is really cool, but it’d work better on a tank champion that has an easier time jumping into the fray.


Karma’s new role

Originally envisioned as a support, Karma’s fringe successes actually came from players using her in the top or mid lanes as an AP burst mage with support abilities, much like Zilean or Morgana. We like this direction and want to encourage you to boost both her offensive and support abilities by building AP. We also want to make sure she can hold her own as a solo or with a lane partner.

Finally, we’ve updated her skills so allies are reliant on Karma, but Karma’s not reliant on them. She’s got enough power at her fingertips to feel strong as a mage or as a support without teammates having to work in perfect concert for you to be effective.


So without further ado… here’s Karma’s new kit:




Passive: Gathering Fire – Hitting enemy champions with Karma’s spells and basic attacks lower Mantra’s cooldown.




R: Mantra – Empowers Karma’s abilities, adding an extra effect to the next ability cast.




Q: Inner Flame – Skillshot that deals magic damage and slows enemies in an area.

  • Empowered by Mantra: Soulflare – Increases damage and leaves behind a zone that slows and, after a brief delay, explodes for AoE damage.




W: Focused Resolve – Enemy-targeted tether that deals damage over time. If the tether is unbroken after a short duration, the tethered target is rooted in place.
  • Empowered by Mantra: Renewal – Deals bonus damage and heals Karma for the duration of the tether.




E: Inspire – Shields an ally and grants them a short speed boost.
  • Empowered by Mantra: Defiance – Enemies near the shielded ally are damaged while nearby allies are shielded and granted a short speed boost.


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Selcopa

Senior Member

03-15-2013

Is the new kit envisioned to be support or ap?