So, about that Karma leak...

First Riot Post
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BestBilbo

Senior Member

03-15-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by HarryOrunitia View Post
I'm sorry, but again, my subjective opinion, her current kit is pretty damn clear to me if you think "Karma" should be her theme. She has an ability that heals your allies and damages your enemies at the same time, an ability that slows and damages your enemies while speeding you and your allies up, an ability that shields an ally while damaging enemies for the same amount, and a passive that makes you stronger the less health you have.
Frist of all thank you for pointing out you are giving an opinion here.

While I understand your reasoning that her current gameplay somewhat reflects 'Karma' in terms of mechanics you stumble onto two problems, which aren't opinions, these are facts:

1. Fans aren't really associated with 'Karma' by any means, in the previous design they've randomly have chosen to use fans in this case, not really having anything to do with 'Karma' in the first place. So from a standpoint of the fans being present on her current kit;

-Fans aren't known to be that devastating, unless they are obviously razorsharp yet with Karma that isn't the case.

-Her fans aren't associated to 'Karma' as a theme in anyway, therefore not characteristic, therefore blurring her readability.

2. The gameplay of the theme 'Karma' can be more visceral - taking Karma literally into account it's basically 'what you do will hit you back' - now her current kit doesn't really to that, it has certain elements of helping out others while screwing opponents over, but the Karma Redesign completely lives up to 'Karma' as a theme in a more visceral way as it literally mechanically works as: If you hit this target it'll screw you over.

Yet again - it's totally subjective whether you feel her current kit captures the theme 'Karma' well enough compared to the more characteristically capturing mechanics in relevance to the theme 'Karma' in the Karma Redesign.

Quote:
Oh, not to mention that it's completely pointless to talk about her kit now because we don't know anything about the official kit rework yet.
Which is exactly the reason why I mentioned Karma Redesign the first time in this thread, someone asked me if I honestly would believe Riot will be able to reflect her new spiritualist/more obvious 'karma' theme as readable and good as they can throughout her gameplay, I admitted I wasn't entirely sure and wasn't entirely convinced they are going to be able to pull that off in terms of making it thematically fitting and making it as readable as it can be, hence I mentioned the Redesign as the kit over there completely revolves around 'karma' in a more visceral way, yet again adding that it's entirely subjective of whether you like those pushed proportions or not.


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HarryOrunitia

Senior Member

03-15-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by BestBilbo View Post
WoT
You're still talking about facts, now adding "majority" to the mix. It's not a fact that Karma's new default better fits her spiritualist theme. It's an opinion. And I think it's ridiculous that you're classifying my opinions as "accusations"?

I mean my "I think traditional Karma skin matches her theme as good as her new default skin does" is an accusation?
And your "you want to make the quality of the content worse" is, as you say, a "fact", a "hard truth", an "absolute truth"? Do you even realize how arrogant that sounds?

Also just because an opinion is shared by a "majority" of people it doesn't mean it's objective. You seem to be really confused about this.
Objective statement: Sivir's current model has less polygons than Annie's new model
Subjective statement: I like Annie's new model better than Sivir's.

Anyway, I really see no point in replying to your other points because I see you're still talking about facts and absolute truths in regard to everything you say, while discrediting everything I say as subjective opinions and even accusations. The world doesn't work like that. When you realize that let me know so maybe we can have an actual conversation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BestBilbo View Post
Frist of all thank you for pointing out you are giving an opinion here.
Yeah, you could probably learn something from that. In the rest of your post you start talking about fans which I didn't even mention and start spouting "facts". I'm sorry but it's really starting to get annoying, I'm not willing to keep having a conversation where the other side tries to sell everything they say as an absolute truth.


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BestBilbo

Senior Member

03-15-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by HarryOrunitia View Post
You're still talking about facts, now adding "majority" to the mix. It's not a fact that Karma's new default better fits her spiritualist theme. It's an opinion. And I think it's ridiculous that you're classifying my opinions as "accusations"?

I mean my "I think traditional Karma skin matches her theme as good as her new default skin does" is an accusation?
And your "you want to make the quality of the content worse" is, as you say, a "fact", a "hard truth", an "absolute truth"? Do you even realize how arrogant that sounds?

Also just because an opinion is shared by a "majority" of people it doesn't mean it's objective. You seem to be really confused about this.
Objective statement: Sivir's current model has less polygons than Annie's new model
Subjective statement: I like Annie's new model better than Sivir's.

Anyway, I really see no point in replying to your other points because I see you're still talking about facts and absolute truths in regard to everything you say, while discrediting everything I say as subjective opinions and even accusations. The world doesn't work like that. When you realize that let me know so maybe we can have an actual conversation.


Yeah, you could probably learn something from that. In the rest of your post you start talking about fans which I didn't even mention and start spouting "facts". I'm sorry but it's really starting to get annoying, I'm not willing to keep having a conversation where the other side tries to sell everything they say as an absolute truth.
I want to respond to this, but I want to do that only if you break down that 'WoT' into little paragraphs by quoting every single little argument I say - I feel you are avoiding a lot of my arguments such as the argument where I give counterarguments about your opinion about how abstract the her previous theme was.

You are not really being fair by just quoting all of that and inserting 'WoT' as you are not even close to covering half of my counterarguments.

I'm happy to respond to this once I see you take me as seriously as I take you serious.

Note: Can't be quite sure if this has happend with Yago - but if he chooses to ignore me and not come back at my points, how can I take his arguments seriously?


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HarryOrunitia

Senior Member

03-15-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by BestBilbo View Post
I want to respond to this, but I want to do that only if you break down that 'WoT' into little paragraphs by quoting every single little argument I say - I feel you are avoiding a lot of my arguments such as the argument where I give counterarguments about your opinion about how abstract the her previous theme was.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HarryOrunitia View Post
Anyway, I really see no point in replying to your other points because I see you're still talking about facts and absolute truths in regard to everything you say, while discrediting everything I say as subjective opinions and even accusations. The world doesn't work like that. When you realize that let me know so maybe we can have an actual conversation.
I don't care if you reply or not, because I know what your reply is going to be like.


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BestBilbo

Senior Member

03-15-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by HarryOrunitia View Post
I don't care if you reply or not, because I know what your reply is going to be like.
Let me apologize for the fact I have used 'accusations' and I'll keep saying 'opinions'

I'm still asking to break my post down however - this like the most important one that isn't subjective at all, or atleast it's logical, where an overwhelming majority would probably agree with that and approve of that as a plausible way of thinking:

Quote:
You can say Karma's design was unreadable, you can present it as an objective fact, but I say no, it's subjective, because there are many people in this thread who actually had no problems reading Karma's concept and theme.
Overwhelming majority has acknowledged to find the theme of previous Karma to be weird and unreadable or no real central or graspable theme at all.

The fact that there can be a lot of debate about the theme in the first place is already an indication it's way too weird and abstract. Are we going to argue Olaf's theme isn't 'berserker', are we going to argue Ashe's theme isn't 'Frost archer'? We aren't because they are blatantly obvious.

It's no problem you yet again don't want to accept the hard truth, now I'm not going to ask you to accept the fact at that the theme was weird and unreadable regardless of what you got out of her eventhough I would like to, I'm going to ask you that you atleast understand the theme can be way more readable than her previous and - thus majorly improving on readability as a whole in the process, which is what Riot has done completely with Karma so far, hitting the nail right on the head in terms of living up to 'Spiritualist'.

^

What I'm asking you, bro, don't dissapear just like Yago, it makes you look weak.

Answer that and I'm happy to tell you why it isn't subjective that her new default characteristically represents her new theme better than the traditional skin.


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Bes7iA

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Senior Member

03-15-2013

To any red:

such a big change should bring big changes
karma is now more in control and has more power than before (she looks like that) what would that means to her people, where she would take ionia, are their enemies aware of her "upgrade", what would they do about it,

such a big change should change the entire leage of legends lore, well not change it, but it should bring a new era

a more powerfull champion is on the horizon, this has to mean new things will happen

-a new war
-a new battlefield (pls)
-a new way to resolve problems
-a new threat
-a new hope

will this power "enlighten" all ionia?
will karma take ionia to a new more powerfull position?
will this ionia posible treat be carefully watched?


pick anything you like but such a radical change to a champion should bring radical changes to the entire leage,

then i would feel that karma wasnt changed, but getting prepared for something instead.


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BestBilbo

Senior Member

03-15-2013

I'm going to be annoying now and make sure that if you continue to post in this thread in the future while completely ignoring me everyone will know that you, both Harry and Yago are persons that will let you invest a lot of time and not actually respond to the counterarguments that are given to you, thus completely wasting everyone's time because there is no point of beating a dead horse.

I represent to you, 'Why the new Karma default represents her new way more obvious 'spiritualist' and 'Karma' theme way better than the Traditional Karma skin!

In her new default - the following is present in her visual design all extremely characteristic to her new theme she is obviously supposed to reflect:

-Taijitu

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Taijitu - it's basically another word for Yin and Yang - the green glowing dragons that are visually present on her new default skin represent Yin and Yang and dragons are commonly used to represent the symbol of Yin and Yang.

-Eastern-style tattoos (dragon)

-Glowing

And over-all the entire dress and the fact they show more of her skin gives a bigger indication and representation of how the character is influenced.

The weight of the spiritual stuff in the new one is the huge floating yin-yang
Everything else just helps tie Karma to it visually.

Taijitu is green and glowing? Karma is green and glowing. It shows that there is some supernatural "energy" to her, which can then be associated with "spiritual energy" due to the visual ties to the taijitu

It would be no different than if you had, say, a champ with a huge cross. Still a globally recognized spiritual symbol (albeit with different connotations)

Traditional Skin:

-No real Taijitu, it's less iconic, the weird shaped little symbols used to represent the yin-yang aren't associated with yin-yang by any means, they aren't known to be symbols that are used to represent the yin-yang symbol, whereas dragons are.

The Traditional doesn't suggest anything spiritual apart from that, just loftiness.

---

Subjective part: Whether you feel the loftiness of the traditional skin is cool or good enough to be her default.

Fact part: The traditional skin lacks characterisitic elements that are known to be associated to spiritualists and yin-yang in the first place.

Have fun telling yourself this all is a subjective matter and I'm the one who is wrong yet continueing to post here and ignoring my counterarguments and probably dissapearing like Yago has.

I'll be a sad panda bear if I see you keep posting in the future, I have been patient and have been as constructive and clear as I could have but in the end all you do is quote me and eventually telling me 'i dont really care if you reply or not your answers are always the same' completely ignoring my counter arguments alltogether while the ironic part is; right from the start you have asked for answer and you both seem to be dissatisfied with the answers we and even Riot has provided.

Sorry man, but I don't like it that you've wasted my time and I'm happy to let you know it wasn't pleasant talking you at all eventhough I've tried to keep my head cool at all costs at any time, now realizing it all has been in vain.

New default skin is a way better representation of the new obvious theme Karma has gotten, in terms of 'Spiritualism' and 'Karma' - there are a lot of characterisic elements added to her visual design that are narrowly associated to karma and spiritualism, characteristic elements that aren't present on the traditional skin. There I said it.

I hope you stop posting your 'opinion' here if you continue to refuse to respond to post that are trying to dismantle your reasoning, if you continue to refuse to accept the fact that all of the decisions were made to make this new version of Karma are all justified changes for the greater good unless proven otherwise.

'It's tough to craft a bullet that pierces through the armor but gently touches the heart'

^ That's my life right there, tried to pierce through your armor of emotional load and subjective thoughts to 'touch your heart' and bring some piece to your mind so you can understand why are how they are. It seems I failed at gently touching your heart, maybe I haven't pierced through the armor and stubbornness maybe I've shot right through the heart.

Either way, I am still here and I am still trying, something I feel that is worth mentioning showing that I have no bad intentions whatsoever.



Bestbilbo


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Yago Xiten

Senior Member

03-15-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by BestBilbo View Post
Would appreciate if you could still give and entire run-down of the entire two posts so I can easily distinguish what you do agree on and do not agree on, I have a hard time believing you've read all of it now especially when taking your response below into consideration. You'd do both of us a huge favor by still giving a rundown through both of my posts, just leave one or two words open of the quotes so I understand what 'paragraph' or argument you are responding to.

It's not that hard you know, no need to always copy an entire OP - to make it more organized for the dudes you are responding to, for yourself and for other readers it's better to just quote multiple times breaking down a post of someone into sections like we do, I hope you'll do the same.



Explain - how does accesability have anything to do with appeal?



In my post I've included an entire explanation to this how I mention her theme is abstract and therefore is always going to be less readable than other characters - yet I've compared the redesign with previous Karma, I invite you to break my two posts into little paragraphs/brackets so I can see a more detailled opinion of about what I've said there, you are saying something with this but you aren't giving a counterargumet to my point, you are like covering a very little part of the entire thing I've said about the redesigns's readability and the previous readability of Karma.



Where you try to push realism too far.



Weird, most of the people have said to find the Sion's Redesign to be spot-on, it's not entirely realistic but is completely readable according to theme, an undead that rises from the dead occasionally as tied with a cooldown, yeah.. not readable.



The more hits, the more you get slowed - should be instantly noticable.



Three crystals orbiting around her - damage on impact and flowing with the rest of her kit, visually seeing the crystals respond to Glacial Storm, actually 'firing off the crystals' - don't see how this doesn't make immediate sense.



Accusation without backing up your claims.



One readable coherent theme that might be more abstract than themes like 'Warrior with Axe' but it has one common purpose 'Karma', so you can expect an entire playstyle around it or atleast get the core of it - whereas her previous theme 'magical fans' or whatever freakin' theme people thought she had already proves that her theme was extremely abstract and even more unreadable. You're welcome.

And a quick note on Lissandra inheriting Crystalize--too much counterplay can be bad. If every single ability had the level of counter-play behind it as that wall, the game would be so unnecessarily complicated.



Like I said, up to Riot to decide whether they like to push proportions or not.



Morello thinks that the more thematically tied a champion it is, the more fun the champion is. Also, another accusation without backing up your claim that most of our redesigns are intended to not realize this is a game and shouldn't be... fun ?



Accusation without backing up your claim that our redesigns wouldn't be playable.



Morello saying Syndra, Yorick, Graves, Zyra are easy wins and that they could've been immensely better, including toxic designs such as Vladimir, which he has a grudge against as well.

Morello admitting they tend to do too much in a design sometimes, the 'Varus' argument I've given aka 'not focusing on one graspable theme or goal to work towards to'

Morello admitting that if they'd rework Brand they'd do it more like ItemsGuy's suggestion and our way of working and admitting he is going to focus way more on theming on future releases.

There isn't anything vague about what Morello has posted in our previous thread - please link me to one if you feel someone is extremely vague where generally an overwhelming majority doesn't know what he's actually saying.

Yet again - using overgeneralization here, accusation without backing up your claim, spewing out that their responses tend to be professional and vague yet not including some posts where you feel that is exactly the case so we can't really jump to any conclusion? Nope - you haven't done that.

The quote where Ironstylus literally says how screwed up Mordekaiser and Sion are in terms of readability and the importance of readability is in general by the following sentence 'nowadays we want to create a fantasy where people can easily jump into' - would you consider that as a vague one that could be interpretted in various ways?

Give me a break.

Bestbilbo

EDIT: Despite the fact I'd consider all of this a complete utter waste of time with you if you don't actually respond to this - I'd still consider myself winning the argument however as not responding is the lamest thing you could possibly do.

I hope you don't chicken out, in fact I assume you are now responding to those previous two posts at you.

If I make a bright rainbow and unicorns video game, it obviously isn't going to appeal to someone who is all dark and emo. Because they cannot relate to it or get into it, because it does not appeal to them, it isn't really accessible to them. RTS games really aren't very accessible to some players, because they don't appeal to them. Even if the game is intuitive and fun, it just isn't the same. This is especially true of skill cap in games. A game with a low skill ceiling is not going to appeal or be accessible to someone looking for something higher. In theory they could enjoy it, but it just won't be enjoyable for them because it's not on their level. Something can be inaccessible because of a player's mentality. This is why appeal can tie in with accessibility.


Yes, you say abstract themes are more difficult to interpret, but this doesn't justify her as being as unreadable as she is. The current one is at least readable if you make some connections to Yin Yang and read her lore. I don't see how yours would be readable even with lore help. A moving standard is one of the most silly design concepts that I've ever seen. Almost as hysterically awful as that Fiddlesticks rework... Oh, and those are opinions there in that last sentence, subjective, so I don't need to justify them and I don't intend to. I don't intend to delve too deep into what you've said because you're so obviously biased and stubborn to your own cause that I'd be wasting my breath.


You removed Anivia's wall becuase it's less realistic than a human mage casting it. You complain about Graves' smokescreen because normal guns don't fire smokescreens. Very rarely do I immediately look at something and immediately know everything about it. Being able to do so wouldn't necesarrily make things better, either. Part of the fun of playing is figuring out what a character can do. Sure, I might not immediately see Graves can fire that smokescreen, but once he does it it makes a lot of sense, actually, sort of like grenade launcher.

He's already undead. Killing him and having him get back up is a lot more misleading than Anivia's. Consider how when Anivia dies she turns into an egg. Immediately you can tell you can target the egg. How would you show this with Sion? It'd be more strange to experience the first time. If Anivia's the Cyrophoenix, it's a bit easier to figure out. How is the Sion's Cryptic Gaze ability readable? Why does an undead guy have some sort of petrifying gaze, is he Medusa now? How, from a gameplay perspective is this readable? I'd have to have prior knowledge about how the ability works to know how facing him affects the ability. Butchery is still a rather difficult ability to read. He isn't a vampire, he's an undead warrior. Lifestealing usually isn't a big undead brute's thing.


Reworked Anivia's abilities visually are coherent, but from a gameplay perspective they're difficult to read. They are complicated in their interaction, and it puts a huge amount of learning curve to playing against her, and playing as her. This is often a sign of bad design. As far as the stacks goes--yes, they slow more, again the slow is not the problem. Would you know immediately, from being slowed, that Anivia can detonate those stacks on you? No. There is no way to know that without looking it up. You could read the tool-tip of the debuff, but, again, this constitutes looking it up.


It isn't an accusation without backing up claims. The current iteration of Anivia is readable, fun, and thematic. You reworked her to make her more thematic, which is essentially violating "if it isn't broke don't fix it". For the sake of already good thematics, in a video game, you change perfectly good gameplay? And keep in mind, I'm a lore and theme junkie, and I still say it feels unncesarry. Her new kit is complicated, see above.


Magical shifting battle standard that also reflects damage is apparently readable whilst in game.

I'm not intending to assert that you weren't trying to achieve fun. I'm just saying that you seem to be focusing more upon the thematics than the actual gameplay of it. Your reworked Karma's abilities on paper may be readable and thematic and fun, but in game it'd be complicated and confusing. Your Anivia would be hard to play against becuase of the learning curve required for what she does.

I'm fairly Aspergetic so it's rather difficult to have to try and explain what I meant when referring to the professionalism and vague. Tone is difficult. Morello talks with an air of "you're on the right track". It feels as though you guys read into this too much and overestimate how much they like your reworks. I don't feel like actually linking because it's unnecesarry.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BestBilbo View Post
I'm going to be annoying now and make sure that if you continue to post in this thread in the future while completely ignoring me everyone will know that you, both Harry and Yago are persons that will let you invest a lot of time and not actually respond to the counterarguments that are given to you, thus completely wasting everyone's time because there is no point of beating a dead horse.
Step off, seriously, and get over yourself. I have a life. Sorry I can't immediately set aside the time to respond to you. I'll get to it when I get to it, personal attacks are unneeded, and furthermore, I am not obligated to respond to you. Realize this. If you choose to invest time, then that is your choice, and it is not my problem if you waste it because I have no obligation to respond.

I could cite all day, and it would still prove nothing to you.

If you guys are so sound in your design capabilities, then go make your own game. I'll watch.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BestBilbo View Post
What I'm asking you, bro, don't dissapear just like Yago, it makes you look weak.
.
Oh same as above.

Also, I like how both you AND ItemsGuy have behaved unethically on numerous occasions. ItemsGuy blatantly misquoted me and attempted to portray me in a negative light, and you keep attacking and trying to goad me.

Not of course that I haven't gotten snide with you. Though I feel it's well deserved considering your undeserved arrogance.


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Letler

Senior Member

03-15-2013

Is the topic of "fans" really raging on this long? They are gone. It's OK.


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Iridos

Senior Member

03-15-2013

Bilbo. Shut up. You've been refuted, now you're trying to break down opposing arguments so that you don't have to contextualize, and it's pointless because you're not even arguing about the thread topic any more. If you really want to have a big argument about the nature of champion readability, go somewhere else.

Harry, Yago, you're giving him what he wants. Don't feed trolls. You already know he's going to ignore most of your actual points anyway... don't waste your time.