So, about that Karma leak...

First Riot Post
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BestBilbo

Senior Member

03-15-2013

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Originally Posted by Dark Blade Yago View Post
Still waiting on ItemsGuy and BestBilbo responses from page 256.
I'll get to that in a few hours, ~7 hours or so, got to go for now - make sure to keep checking out this thread, I'll be tossing out responses.


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Sharky Shark

Senior Member

03-15-2013

I hope Karma gets a base movement speed increase since she doesn't have to waddle anymore. D:

I like the robe on the traditional Karma skin, it looks nicer than her old design. It's practical, and while it's a bit different, I like the overall feel of her design.

As for her new default splash art, it's not as good. It feels like an entirely new champion to me.


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Sei Seragaki

Member

03-15-2013

Will heimerdinger be next morello?


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Yago Xiten

Senior Member

03-15-2013

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Originally Posted by BestBilbo View Post
I'll get to that in a few hours, ~7 hours or so, got to go for now - make sure to keep checking out this thread, I'll be tossing out responses.
And ItemsGuy?

Or are you the same? Wouldn't surprise me.

Either way. Oh joy.


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Gooooober

Senior Member

03-15-2013

again, I hope her traditional skin keeps the fans & her iconic movement.


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Iridos

Senior Member

03-15-2013

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Originally Posted by Gooooober View Post
again, I hope her traditional skin keeps the fans & her iconic movement.
I'd add the dress, but yeah. At this point I'm past hoping for more, but it seems reasonable to ask Riot to deliver the elements that make current Karma who she is in the Traditional skin.


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KyliaL

Member

03-15-2013

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Originally Posted by Iridos View Post
I'd add the dress, but yeah. At this point I'm past hoping for more, but it seems reasonable to ask Riot to deliver the elements that make current Karma who she is in the Traditional skin.
id love if they kept her fans in her traditional skin. I do think its reasonable to ask. Traditional Karma is black and white, with fans lol.


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BestBilbo

Senior Member

03-15-2013

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Originally Posted by Dark Blade Yago View Post
And ItemsGuy?

Or are you the same? Wouldn't surprise me.

Either way. Oh joy.
I assume he's busy, either way I don't really care, I have read your post and I can deal with it as well so I'll be responding to your post, hopefully in a more humble and constructive way so we can come to a conclusion instead of bashing on each other without really saying something.

As for the 'Hey you could also be ItemsGuy on a smurf', I hope you really can distinguish me from ItemsGuy, I'm a dude from Europe and my english is extremely bad compared to his.

I'm gently asking to drop the hostile attitude, bro. :)

EDIT: Enjoy, my response.


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BestBilbo

Senior Member

03-15-2013

First of all, I'm not going to say anything about the accusations that were made towards you by ItemsGuy and vica versa, going to be as objective and clear as I can, I'm going to drop all the emotional load.

Please note: I ask you to read this entire post through before commenting, otherwise you'd probably be wasting your time as I'm not asking you to respond to every little argument or paragraph, I'll include a run-through/summarize all of the things you've said and what I want to say in response, I encourage you to respond to those only, meaning I'll be thinking you'll agree with me on the other points I make. (obviously, respond to those others if you feel you don't)

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Which is probably exactly the way you want things to be. You set it up so that people have to go out of their way to acknowledge your reworks or be disregarded for not supplying evidence.
It's not really a trick of any sorts - it's something that backs up our claims, the entire reason our previous threads have gotten so popular is because we use our brain, collect quotes that back up our claims and then provide evidence/actual material how that would work.

'HEY THIS DESIGN CAN BE SO MUCH BETTER' without including an actual rework makes you look extremely stupid, it's the entire reason those quick stupid threads get downvoted in to oblivion instantly regardless of the OP being right or wrong, it's just that people don't appreciate accusations or arguments without actual proof or solution in terms of an improvement. This is the entire reason I and ItemsGuy disrespect you for balantly pointing out 'your designs are p00r lulz' without actually pointing out a few arguments and heck I remember someone brought up Fiddlesticks Redesign in this thread, was that you? Good eye, seem to have cherry-picked that one out, Fiddlesticks Redesign could really use quite some work.

I have countless of examples especially concerning counterplay I am going to throw at you and ask you 'why the hell wouldn't this redesign be better than the current one' and I hope you'll be openminded enough to actually view them without all of the aggresive and hostile force that is probably pushing you always when you are responding to either me or ItemsGuy, I feel that most of the time people who experience such a feeling are thinking less and more filled with rage, the rage clouding their judgement.

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Originally Posted by Dark Blade Yago View Post
You could still be misreading. In your opinion you create a readable character with a coherent solid theme with no anti-patterns, but that does not mean that there are not some. Now, see this is a trap I'm walking into, becuase the only way for me to get any notice here is to bring up your reworks.
As said, you point out his design are poor so this should be a win-win situation for you here, it's not a trap you are walking in to, for you it should be bars of gold in front of you that you can pick up and walk off with anytime.

We point out things and provide solutions/an example of how the design would fit the criteria/live up to the standards of a 'good design', we would look like a bunch of fools if you could prove us wrong how the design does not do that, we are putting ourselves in a vulnerable state by actually mentioning the Redesigns as you have the opportunity to prove us wrong, which is good, otherwise we would be pointing out things like an uneducated kid and not backing our claims - we'd just be spewing out random accusations.

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In your Karma rework, why does the standard move around? How is it aparent that they will take damage if they hit them? Just from her name, Karma? I feel as though in game, if this were to happen to me, I'd completely forget about her name for awhile and wonder what just happened. I'm sure if someone pointed it out, I'd think oh, hey, Karma, I get it, but that'd require Burden of Knowledge.

It's only a slight amount, of course, but still there.
Right now I feel you are mistaking 'Burden of Knowledge' with 'Learning Curve' here and before you rage at me for saying that because I've stepped on your toes, hear me out; the terms are extremely like each other, they are just slightly different.

Burden of Knowledge: That what is a burden, something that you are carrying that you don't really have or want to carry, something that in a game could easily be replaced without watering down the quality of the content, most of the time making the content even better because the burden is removed.

In this case you have translated the 'burden is removed' to 'made it less of a burden', pointing out that the Burden of Knowledge is still there. I'll get to that soon enough.

Learning Curve: Something you have to deal with regardless, in this case a good example would be Starcraft2, the entire micro managing and macro are core elements of the game, are they burden of knowledge? You could point out that it is burden of knowledge because it is a burden of to learn how to micro manage and take care of macro, but the point of a 'Burden' in video games means that it is 'too much', meaning it can probably be removed, now if you get rid of micro managing or macro SC2 wouldn't be the same anymore because micro managing and macro are core elements of a RTS game.

The entire part of learning how to play SC2 isn't burden of knowledge, while it can be frustrating, it just has to do with the fact that SC2 has an extremely steep learning curve.

What does this mean? It means that there are always elements of a game you have to 'just have to learn for the sake of learning' and sometimes that is more visceral, more drastic, way worse in terms of making no sense and thus way too complex and unnecessary, obvious burden of knowledge.

Learning curve and 'Burden of Knowledge' are quite abstract terms when it comes to champion design because they can be narrowly associated with eachother, for example, does it really make sense Darius gets a reset on his ult when he kills a target? Not really, but regardless of that 'learning the mechanic for the sake of learning the mechanic' his entire kit makes sense and does what it is supposed to do.

This is entirely our point, we improve on what we can improve on and compare them to exisiting/the current design.

Previously, there wasn't a solid coherent theme the entire kit of Karma worked towards to, the entire explanation of Karma in a nutshell would be: 'Well this is some weird lady in an unpractical dress that has fans but she is also kind of a mage as she uses magic she can also heal herself by throwing out fans in a cone in front of her and also she can shield herself for large amount and also she is somewhat associated to being a spiritualist as she can make a bond, etcetera'

The theme isn't coherent and isn't readable, the main factor the fans were removed from her design, they weren't readable as they didn't really make sense and aren't really characteristic or narrowly associated with spiritualists in the first place.

If you could look at Karma Redesign and you'd only have to say 'Karma, mother****er' and see the standard moving onto different target over and over and noticing you constantly get screwed over yourself when attacking that target that has the standard, the design is way more readable as it just takes a little while before the player notices what the character is all about.

Obviously, like I said, Burden of knowledge and learning curve are narrowly associated with eachother, burden of knowledge that you have to learn all the effects and abilities this Karma Redesign has? Not sure, but this counts for every champion, you have to learn all their abilities but you can help and make the game way more accesable by helping players as much as you can by making designs readable, from a character that does 'XXXXXX the entire rant I gave about previous karma before' to a character where you could just give a quick sentence to help them understand 'Karma is a *****', that the design reflects in gameplay.

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You've replocated Anivia's passive because it apparently wasn't readable enough.
Not quite, I'll explain.

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Probably because the "Burden of Knowledge" of how phoenixes work and that she is a cyrophoenix.
The passive 'Rebirth' of Anivia is extremely characteristic, you know, phoenix dying and then resurrecting, it's cool that they have managed to convert that to a phoenix that's actually a 'cyrophoenix', the thing that messes her up as a character theme-wise however, is that the most relevant/characteristic ability to the theme 'cyrophoenix' or simply 'ice phoenix' is her passive, as the the rest of her kit would probably simply be more characteristic to an actual ice mage.

Is it really readable that an ice bird randomly pops up an wall of ice? Arguably, you can give me the 'if it aint broke don't fix it answer', 'well she is an ice bird and uses magic, like I said, associated with ice and magic, I guess it could do that she instantly pops up a wall of ice' - the point is that the Redesign captures more characteristic elements of how a bird behaves and is converted to a kit that would still be relevant to a magical ice phoenix.

Getting rid of all the 'piss-poor' abilities you could back up with 'if it aint broke dont fix it' answers and replacing them with characteristic abilities, hence relocating her current passive to a character that fits the passive better, you know Sion Redesign, an undead warrior that actually rises from the dead after you've already killed him and move the entire 'rebirth egg passive' as a more core element of her kit, if you had read into it more, you would have noticed Anivia Redesign actually still has a similar version of Rebirth, except here it's her ultimate.

Please note that we like to think about everything, are we saying that for example Anivia's Wall is a stupid and not-fun ability we'd just simply remove because it's not really characteristic to a bird? Not at all, it's an extremely cool ability just isn't readable on a bird, even if it's an ice bird, hence this ability was moved to Lissandra, the Ice Dervish.

Like I said, it's more readable for an actual human mage that specialized in the arts of ice magic to instantly pop up a wall of ice, the entire kit of Lissandra design is 'popping up hard solid ice' with readable counterplay which is 'you can pierce/break through it the longer you hit it', you know, you can break ice which is another indication we want to live up to counterplay as much as we can too, giving players the opportunity to actually break that wall instead of 'oh lord im in range of this ability and guarenteed this champion will be able to wall something or someone off in this scenario, completely screwing us over and forcing us to wait the entire duration of the ability, without us being able to do something' - with Lissandra? No no, the player and opponents have to be on their guard at all times as there are plenty of ways the opponent can counter/do something against Lissandra whereas Lissandra is more encouraged to strategically and smartly make use of her abilities.

This would pretty much fit the 'less is more' argument Morello has mentioned plenty of times on the forums, as he likes Anivia's travel time of her Q, by actually making the ability harder to hit/traveling way slower, the rewards of doing it successful feels more rewarding because it's harder to pull off. Whereas like something like Pantheons spearshot feels somewhat rewarding but you aren't that proud of yourself, you know 'I'm just point clicking'.

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The current Karma has at least less confusion then that moving standard. And keep in mind, since the standard moves, it'd be more difficult to locate who it belongs to. This requires research on the player's part to know what's causing it.
And I'd associate this with Learning Curve, is something that is a core element to her gameplay which makes it even more readable, much like Orianna's ball, players also have to know it comes from her but once you get it (and you should be able to get that for both characters extremely fast) you'd notice that their entire kits revolve around the standard and the ball completely.

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And the current Anivia's passive makes a lot of sense because you see her, an ice elemental bird, die and turn into an egg and it sort of clicks that she's supposed to be an ice phoenix.
As said, she still has that mechanic, it's just her ultimate now as it characteristically represent the 'phoenix' part about her theme extremely well

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In your iteration, her passive is logically coherent as ice freezes, but from a gameplay perspective, confusing. After all, I would have to know how her passive works to understand the counterplay. This is more research and more complicated than the current Anivia.
Not sure what you are trying to say here, first of all; the mechanic of the rebirth is still present in the Redesigns, thus still making sense.

Secondly, you are saying that the passive in the redesign makes sense in terms of logic and then you are suddenly saying it's weird and confusing and you'd have to do research?

Brand hits you with a spell, he hits you with fire, his passive is added, his passive is a damage over time, his passive represent fire, you burn.

Complicated? No, the passive works like the source material.

Anivia hits you with an auto attack/spell, she hits you with ice, ice is narrowly associated to sloweffects, you get slowed. Complicated?

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In both of these cases I would certainly not say your designs are qualitatively better.
Q, W, E, R of current Anivia aren't characteristic to a bird in any way, or atleast not as visceral or obvious as the mechanics anivia has in the Anivia Redesign, fact.

(such as the wall of ice popping up is not characteristic to a bird at all, even if its an ice phoenix as the ability would still make sense or heck would even make more sense when it'd come from an actual ice mage)

Taking theme into consideration and that Riot wants to make a character as much like the character in terms of gameplay I'd say the Redesign is qualitatively better, as not only are the designs more readable because you see things that actually make sense in terms of the visual appearance and theme of the character, the character also feels more like the character itself because the gameplay represents the character way better than the current design does while on top of that, providing counterplay.

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I would also not say (based upon the two previous examples and a couple more, such as Fiddlesticks) that you meet Riot's design criteria consitently. You may feel you do, and you may use their posts to justify yourself, but it is possible that you are wrong or misusing or quoting their posts. Riot's design philosophies are rather vague. Concepts like "Burden of Knowledge" can easily be taken too far as I often feel you have done. (Read above about Anivia*)
I ask you to go to our previous thread 'Are Champions As Awesome As They Could Be' - you aren't wrong for pointing out that it is a possibility we are entirely wrong about everything we say while we still claim were right because we think the quotes of Riot we include back up our claims while in reality we are wrong and misuse their quotes, it's a plausible way of thinking and you certainly aren't wrong and in fact you are even smart that you have pointed that out as it really proves you are being realistic and critical, yet I redirect you to our previous thread to see how much Morello has basically agreed on all of the points me and ItemsGuy have thrown at him in the comment/post section, after the Original Post.

Basically, his entire defense, just like you do, was 'We don't do this so drastically', 'We don't want this as much as you do', 'We don't think it's necessary to push proportions as much as you do', which is weird as it is pretty much contradicting yourself and I'll explain that in more detail. More importaintly, Morello admitted that they'd work more like ItemsGuy if they'd rework Brand and that Morello would've liked to do more characteristic changes to Zyra, Yorick, Graves in terms of theming, as he felt they could've worked way more on them.

On top of that he admitted that sometimes they tend to do too much in a design, like with Varus he liked the way his Q works as a sniping ability of sorts but ended up saying it is true they've tried to cover too much in his design by forcing multiple aspects into his kit instead of working to one common goal or graspable theme.

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I could probably utilize Riot's own design philosophies to back up my points, though doing so would require a significant amount of effort and scouring through their posts. Furthermore, it's highly possible that I would misinterpret and misrepresent their intentions.
True, except like I said I think you'll most likely will end up contradicting yourself, if you'd be searching for examples where a Riot'er has pointed out that sometimes 'the readability isn't as important in some cases than in other cases' your entire claim of 'well sometimes burden of knowledge isn't an actual flaw' could be considered to be justified, but in the end you'll end up contradicting yourself as there are tons of other posts that actually claim that readability is extremely important at all costs counting for every design.

Now you could also say that those posts are 'contradicting yourself' as you have evidence there are cases that readability isn't as important in some cases, but taking into account that generally, an overwhelming majority of the cases readability is extremely important, we give examples of how the designs those posts you claim to be evidence or proof can be designs that are even more readable aka the entire 'well this time i dont want to spend too much work on readability' aka intentionally not living up to theme criteria/standards of a good design can entirely be removed and the design can be converted into a design that does match the criteria and standards and there is no more need for excuses.

I like to think Character design is extremely complicated to execute, but it is extremely logical, which is why I feel that despite that I have pointed out your accusation of 'you might misuse their quotes' is logical and realistic, I don't think it's a real solid accusation with a lot of value, as all of the aspects of making a good design, now completely referring to the 'Champion Retrospective' video is entirely able to be broken down into science and logic.

1. Theme, you can break this down into science. Is it more characteristic for an ice phoenix to flap her wings as a channeled mechanic creating a storm and pushing enemies away or is it more characteristic for an ice phoenix to randomly pop up a wall? Yeah..

2. Readability, is it more readable that an 'Armordillo' barely touches you and that you should assume that he now taunts you for 3 seconds or is it more readable that the armordillo with the huge shell with spikes constantly pokes/damages you with his spikes and like that generating some sort of treat, drawing attention/aggro that way.

(Entirely what Rammus's taunt is, it's an ability where they have entirely stepped away from his theme as 'Armordillo' and searched for an ability that would not neccesarily fit his theme, but fit the role they thought he was supposed to forfill on top of that it has no counterplay in terms of 'if this guy is in range there is nothing I can do I will get taunted for 3 seconds', but what happens if you can all replace those abilities with abilities that are actually characteristic to the champion fitting the theme and thus being more readable while still being effective in that role? Yeah.. Probably, a better champion, a better design because it manages to live up to all of the standards better, more accurately)

Going to include the post you fired at me here as well because I feel they lay an emphasis on what I've said here above, saving you from repeating yourself and thus saving me from repeating myself in future posts.

-Post you pointed at me-

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Originally Posted by Dark Blade Yago View Post
Meepo's "burden of knowledge" actually INCREASES the accessibilty of the game by appearling to a certain type of player.
Which is appealing to the kind of players that like 'complexity for the sake of complexity' - bringing out a character that has an extremely high skill floor (not accesable) and a skill cap depending on the design.

Accesability =/= appeal. You'd appeal to more players because you offer different type of characters, you aren't increasing the accesability, accesability is how easy or hard it is to jump right into the action and do somewhat consistant, in League it is the case that the controls are extremely friendly and because of an overwhelming majority, pretty much every champion except for a few champions like Orianna, are extremely easy to use makes a real accesable game, a game with a low skill floor in terms of controls, whereas Starcraft2 or pretty much any other RTS has an extremely high skill floor in terms of controls: You'll play like **** if you can't handle the controls, and god dang the controls are hard if you are completely new to them.

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Lore dependence is NOT NECESARRILY a fault. It depends upon what you're going for.
Which would be an excuse 'hey this time we do want a character that is lore dependant', obviously, if you want do something and eventually living up to that you could call it a success, I wouldn't call a lore dependant champion a success after we've seen and can perfectly acknowledge that an overwhelming majority of the champions isn't or doesn't have to be lore dependant at all.

Would it be a flaw if every champion would be lore dependant? Not entirely, than it is an intentional aim and decision that tells all players right off the bat 'Guys, all the character in the game are lore dependant, we encourage you to read the lore' - even then we would still think of it as a bad decision but our argument would shift from 'Oh god why the hell are there still champions that are lore dependant while we can easily see they don't have to be' to 'Why the hell are they lore dependant in the first place it screws over the instant readability of the champion and gives people burden of knowledge for every character because they are forced to read the lore, eventhough this is your intentional decision we like to point out examples that wouldn't make these characters lore dependant, how do you like the improvement on the readability?'

The fact that some champions are lore dependant makes it even more confusing, as the player doesn't know what or which one is, whereas like I said it's better to have one or the other, which is no lore dependance or lore dependance for every character because it makes sure that people know what they're up to instead of 'oh lord I'm going into this game yet I'm not entirely sure if I'll bump into a character where I'd be better off reading his or hers lore so I'd understand there abilities better because they don't make immediate sense'

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ItemsGuy's work often has quite a few design flaws of his own which require, from a gameplay perspective, a great deal of burden of knowledge. They may not be lore dependent knowledge burdens, but there are knowledge burdens all the same.
Dealt with this already - you're associating burden of knowledge with learning curve and learning curve is that what you have to learn no-matter-what, not able to be changed or improved on to make it even more understandable.

That means that all of the Redesigns aren't necessarily entirely 'burden-of-knowledge' proof - for example, if you'd be able to point out how some Redesigns could have a way more readable characteristic improvement whether it is an improvement or suggestion of the visual appearance of the champion or actually laying an charasteristic or realisitc emphasis on the abilities of the champion, perhaps you could adjust that learning curve and lower it so the champion becomes more readable and thus more accesable, thus proving the previous design had elements of burden of knowledge - voila, like that you've succesfully improved on a design.

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Yes. If you can rack up more CS than they are you are outplaying them. This is because they are not performing as well at that task as you. You failed to mention if they know what CSing is in the first place or not. Knowledge is power. And in any competitive game (LoL is this, by the way) part of being skilled is handling the burden of knowledge. Being tasked with knowing what to do and doing it well means something. If you were required to know nothing and to still suceed at the game, it would not be competitive. LoL tries to appeal to the casual player, but it is still a competitive game. Knowing how to do something better and proving it is exactly what competition is.
Yet it is all mechanical and is no direct straight up battle/involvement between player and opponent, yet again this all has to do with learning curve, it's true that you have to know about CS'ing in the first place, but if you can keep that mechanical 'being skilled in theory and in hard knowledge' as low as possible you create more room for dynamic and engaging direct involvement in terms of counterplay and competition.

Like soccer, it still has rules and could be compared to the entire 'CS' mechanic, but the actual 'playing' and kicking around with the ball is way more important than the rules to win the game, now that's a weird and abstract argument I've just tossed out there but I hope you get the point when I mention the following: The rules aka the mechanical 'being skilled in theory and in hard knowledge' and in bland core elements of mechanics such as the micro managing and macro is the most dominant force when it comes to winning the game, the rules over there/core elements of the game have way more value than the actual kicking of the ball, the actual 'directly outplaying your opponent'


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BestBilbo

Senior Member

03-15-2013

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You are NOT forced to find out why Graves shoots a smokescreen or Karma has fans. Anymore than you are required to learn WHY fire burns--you just need to know that that is what happens.
Except the difference here is that 9 out of 10 people will know what fire does before they play League of Legends whereas they've never seen a normal shotfun fire a smokescreen whereas they've never seen a magical weird unpractical dressed lady screwing you over with magical fans while healing and shielding herself and then also spirit bonding with people.

'Brand Fire Mage' - Oh, I understand why he does what he does. 'Olaf the (raging) Berzerker' - Oh, I understand why he does what he does. 'Darius the dude with the big freakin' axe - Oh I understand why he does what he does. 'Dude with Shotgun' - Oh I unde.. wait what why does he shoot that smoke screen?

What you are doing right here (AND WHAT IS HAPPENING THROUGHOUT THIS ENTIRE THREAD OF PEOPLE THAT ARE NOT SATISFIED WITH THIS KARMA REWORK) is saying things aren't important/'if it aint broke dont fix it' mentality argument.

Readability is extremely important and Riot pays A LOT OF DANG ATTENTION TO THAT ASPECT, hence they've dropped the fans, changed the dress to an actual practical one and made her more look/reflect the entire new 'spiritualist' theme Karma has, much like Singed has a freakin' canister on his back so you visually get where the poision is coming from, much like that Katarina the sneaky agile assasin is all about throwing out 'em quick daggers.

You aren't literally forced to find out why Graves shoots his smokescreen, but it still leaves the player confused as it doesn't make sense, screwing over the readabiliy, accesability and structural integrity of the game. You aren't forced to find out but you could pretty much compare it to the following situation: 'I want to solve a math issue just for lols, no one forcing me to, whoops! I can't solve it, now I can either stop and move on, leaving the math issue unsolved or finding the actual solution by searching up the answer on the internet, hopefully so I can finally get why or how I couldn't solve it, either saddling me with more work or leaving me unsatisfied'

1. People want to play the game.
2. The readability of a game is paramount for the structural intergrity and accesability of a game.
3. People want less homework and more playing.
4. People that get the homework can either do the homework or ignore it - either way there is something toxic starting with the fact that they got saddled with the homework in the first place.

What happens? They continue to get stomped by Graves while being or keep having a negative feeling of confusement because it just doesn't make sense and eventually living with it - or they read the lore and get it, yet they still got saddled with the homework in the first place.

No one is forcing you, true, but either way you are saddling people with homework because stuff doesn't make sense, it's better to make sense.

There isn't even a smoke canister on his shotgun from a visual perspective, which I find even more disturbing, like literally, the entire justification of the ability is the line 'he got a modified shotgun made for him' - epic.

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While some find it frustrating to have a character not do exactly what is visually obvoius, it is also often fresh and fun. It's interesting to play against a character or to play as a character and realize how they work.
Except Darius plays how he looks, Olaf plays how he looks and I could go on for a while - this is pretty much an invalid argument as even with the Karma rework yet again they are confirming they actually seek to characteristically capture the element of theme of a certain design and make the entire design revolve around that.

Why'd you want to play a rampaging bull but actually plays less than a rampaging bull as he could play? (Alistar)

Why'd you want to play an inventor but actually plays less than an inventor as he could play? (Heimerdinger, you know, the only real invention he drops are his turrets, the rest of his kit are fairly generic mage abilities with an 'inventor skin' in this case 'rocket and grenade particles', sure you could assume heimerdinger had already made them, but there is no mechanical inventing involved especially with the rocket and grenade ability)

It's yet again another excuse to not live up to the standards - in this case the standard of theme. Why'd you want to have a character that feels less like the actual character?

With Quinn, we feel that Quinn could've respresented a falconer way stronger mechanically, like it is a fact that Quinn and Valor Redesign captures more characteristic mechanics that are known to falconing than current Quinn and Valor - you know, a falconer isn't known to do backflips.

The excuse? 'This is what a falconer looks like in League of Legends' - which we translate to 'Quinn and Valor could have been a better representation of a character that mechanically works more like an actual falconer than she does now'

It doesn't make sense and it's an excuse, as if you'd be giving Brand a backflip, 'this is what a fire mage looks like in League of Legends' - no, just no.

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You weren't required to read Mordekaiser's lore--you could have, as you did with Darius, accepted it as it was. Mordekaiser was a little more abstract, which is why you had to inquire about him. Abstract principles can be great, the human race has been obsessed with many of them for quite some time.
And yet again you somewhat make sense yet you aren't completely on the right path yet. Darius has a huge axe and plays exactly like the muscular dude with the huge axe. Mordekaiser is the dude in the bulky armor with the huge giant mace yet doesn't really swing around with it and shatter the ground with it as much as you'd expected him to do but instead works more like a mage and creates a ghost out of your corpse.

Now there is NO misusing of a quote here, it's literally copying IronStylus.

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Originally Posted by IronStylus View Post
Scion is an interesting case. Absolutely, the dude needs a visual update BADLY. Grumpy Monkey has some ideas here, some very good ideas. I agree that he fits into that weird area that some older champions fall into, where the visual theme doesn't really match the look. Scion wields a giant axe, one which, by today's standards, you'd expect to be chopped in half with. But, as has been mentioned, he's more of a Mage. Same thing goes for Mordakieser, big mace dude you'd expect to be bonked on the head by, instead he casts a lot of spell and.. nabs your ghost?

Meanwhile, these days, we want to create a fantasy that people can easily buy into. Darius is a proper axe dude, he wants to chop you with said axe, and as him you want to chop people down with said axe.
Mordekaiser is an extremely bad, weird-themed and not readable guy people can NOT buy into, not forced to reading his lore but is required to fully understand him or players having the opportunity to live in confusion and eventually accepting this guy is a weird guy in bulky armor with a giant mace but in reality working differently.

Abstract themes are fine, misleading appearances are not.

'Warrior with Axe' - abstract theme? No, cool regardless!

'Spiritualist' - abstract theme? Yes and it's more of a challenge to keep those abstract themes readable throughout gameplay and visual appearance, now they've absolutely NAILED that with her new default skin of the karma rework, let's see if they can still have it readable throughout gameplay (which was the core reason I mentioned Karma Redesign the first time in this thread to that buddy that asked me 'do you honestly expect the gameplay of karma rework will represent that new spiritualist theme that well, I mean I look at the default and get she is a spiritualist but when I look at the gameplay screenshots I actually have no idea what I'm looking at other than some chick using magic', which eventually made me mention Karma Redesign because I feel that ItemsGuy has nailed it over there because the entire gameplay works to one common and readable goal 'KARMA, BRO')

You must understand that they want characters to represent what they truly are in terms of visual appearance and gameplay - therefore hopefully and most likely Sion will get a rework of his abilities as well because a lot of his stuff doesn't make sense and live up to the 'undead warrior chopping up people with an axe' theme, aka his stun and his 'magical shield' which yet again has made him lore dependant because it clearly states that 'he has gotten more unusual and more powerful magic powers after his resurrection', clever Riot is clever.

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I used a hyperbole there, admittedly. But noobfriendly, again, does not necesarrily mean good. Something that is attempted to be made as accessible as possible will often become inacessible to another group. An example of this is a child's toy. Sure, an adult could easily access it, it is within their degree of understanding, but it probably will not interest them because it is too simple and there it is not as engaging.
And still I don't think you have 'your facts straight' - you are talking about skill cap and skill floor here without even realizing it, Riot strives for characters and for a game that is highly accesable aka you can immediately jump into yet stays fun the more and more you play it, hopefully even making it more fun to play. (I can literally quote Morello (like I've literally quoted IronStylus), where Morello is saying this but it's rather a large post, feel free to ask for it if you don't believe me)

Adding complexity screws over the accesability and thus increasing the skill floor - which is something they don't want heck Morello is entirely against 'Complexity for the sake of complexity'

Adding depth doesn't screw over the accesability as it completely leaves the skill floor where it is yet adding more juicyness and dynamic depth into the game so the more skilled player can make use of it.

Yet again it's like soccer - a 4 year old can kick a ball in the goal (SKILL FLOOR, A 4 YEAR OLD CAN DO IT) from 1 meter distance slowly rolling over the ground into the goal - a 25 year old professional can do it from 25 meter distance with a huge curve and shooting the ball through the air with immense speed and accuracy. It's all about kicking that ball into the goal, but the two mentioned are not the same. In fact, it is fun and should be fun in video games as well to learn how you kick that ball from a 1 meter distance to the skill level of being able to kick it from 25 meter distance through the air with a curve with immense speed and accuracy (SKILLCAP)

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I'm sorry, I promised some sort of summary of all of this but I got to go now and I think I won't be editing this later because to be honest I'd feel scared you'll read over all of the above and just skip onto the summary, yet again I've laid out points and in my opinion have made perfect sense that people can't really deny. I've simply tried to enlighten and make you understand us. On top of that, I hope you finally realize that all of the argueing and dissatisfaction about Karma in this thread is all completely unnecesarry and pointless because so far with the Karma Rework they've hit the nail right on the head and you will probably not convince them to change anything about it as it will most likely blur her theme and make her less readable, which is something they want to avoid at all costs.

I hope I won't get such a long post of you posted back at me, not because I wouldn't want to read it, but because it'd make me a sad panda bear because it'd probably mean you'll keep on repeating yourself and throwing out arguments at me that are your opinion yet are heavily in battle with Riot's current standards including everyone else in this thread that complains about the removal of Karma's fans especially, it's like refusing to accept the fact that they were blurring down the readability and theme of Karma and untill someone actually comes up with a suggestion/rework where Karma keeps her fans while still maintaining a theme is as coherent and unified as her new theme and as readable as her new design, people should just accept the fact that they had to make these decisions.

I just hope you see we summed up logical criteria and meet those standards which is a fact that are Riot's words - are it the same standards if we push our proportions more than they do? Not really, but I'm hoping that they don't push proportions just because they don't realize they can, and we haven't gotten an answer about that yet.

Cheers and I hope you respond, this took some time writing,

Bestbilbo

Note: This is me taking investing a lot of effort because you demanded a response, I hope you don't disrespect me by simply ignoring this post, I haven't ignored yours.

Take your time, I don't expect you to respond today or immediately, would be awesome if you did though, but make sure you respond in time, I'll be keeping tabs on this thread as I have done previously

EDIT: Forgot I'd mention some easy-win Redesigns I feel you would have nothing against to point out, I'd like to but I guess I'll wait for your response on this or otherwise this'll be getting way too long.