Let's talk about Champ Select

First Riot Post
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SlightlySuicidal

Member

03-13-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zerglinator View Post
What if you had the Dungeon Finder system like this:

You have SIX options to select from:

1. Top Lane
2. Jungle
3. Mid Lane
4. Duo Lane-Carry
5. Duo Lane-Support
6. Anti-Meta

If you select options 1-5, you are matched up with the other 4 of 1-5.

If you choose option 6, you are matched up with 4 other players that selected option 6.
and if you choose option 6 you wait 45 minutes to play and then get the guy going revive/clarity morde because "anti-meta".


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Rule665

Senior Member

03-13-2013

1) Vote Kick | Players want the ability to vote kick toxic players from Champ Select.
This could work, but i feel it would be used inappropriately or prematurely in many situations

2) WoW Dungeon Finder | Players want the ability to queue up for a particular role like “Healer” and “DPS” and placed into a Champ Select with a team
This sounds the most pleasant, but the "meta" can be shifted from game to game to fit certain situations and counters. In fact my favorite set up is the non conventional one that throws the enemy team off completely.

3) Prisoner’s Island | Players want matchmaking to pair toxic players with toxic players, and positive players with positive players.
This just seem illogical

I find positive reinforcement is the best. We have an honor system in place, perhaps it just needs to be expanded. We could add a cooperation button during champion select, or to the list we have at the end of the game. Another option would be letting players select multiple honors to give to players that deserve them. I come across players who work as a team, but aren't very friendly, i also come across people who are helpful, friendly, and work as a team. Once honor is given, a small incentive could be added at the end of the next game played. Something small like 5 IP per honor, so if a person is rewarded 3 honors from his team and 2 from the opposing team, they should get an additional 25 IP to the next game.

TLDR: Reward players for positive behavior by expanding existing honor system


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MandyMemory

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Senior Member

03-13-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyte View Post
Why would Prisoner's Island be mainly Bronze players? Players of all skill levels can have toxic behaviors.
Bronze is like 75% of players. I know we don't have data, but it's fairly safe to assume that 75% of toxic players are bronze.
Quote:
Originally Posted by davin View Post
Definitely an issue--if you're doing role signalling (or any other kind of signalling, like just saying "I'll support!" in chat and then picking revive/smite Yi and going bot), it forms a sort of informal contract with your team. It'd require different ways for players to resolve violations of that contract (e.g., reporting, kicking, etc.). Similarly, the way you're playing may not meet the expectations of what "support" is. If it's getting the job done (I've seen great Nid supports), are you actually violating that contract?
Solved by vote kick.
Quote:
Originally Posted by davin View Post
On a five-point frequency scale, "my mistakes cost the game" clocks in at a full point above "another player's mistakes cost the game". It can't really be the case that every respondent only rarely costs the game while a given other player frequently does.
Doesn't a player make a mistake that costs the game 20% of the time, while their teammates do it 80% of the time?

That seems like rarely and frequently to me. It also breaks down to everyone doing it 20% of the time.


So my ideas on the whole subject.
1)
You can pick instantly upon entering the lobby, perhaps even before some people have entered.
There is no need for this. Right now you have 90 seconds to choose champions (In normal), what if it was split up?
60 seconds where no one can pick, you can only discuss with your team until time is up or everyone hits the ready button. (Runes and masteries can be done in this time)
30 seconds to pick. Since you worked out everything with your team for 60 seconds, picking shouldn't take long at all. Also, no one can instalock. Sure, they can be adamant about wanting to be mid, but other people have a full minute to plan around that as opposed to 2 people instalocking mid and trying to force a dodge.

I have no idea how to do this for ranked. Maybe just add some time before the first ban for discussion?
2)
WoW dungeon finder
There's no reason why this only has to be built for 1 meta, just give it 2 lists.
List one has team comps. Normal, No jungler, Other, etc. (I'm not convinced that AD or AP jungle/top/mid even need to be a selection with penetration like it is.)
List two has role in that comp. Top/Mid/Jungle/ADC(Bad name?)/Support

Allow people to check multiple roles, perhaps with an order of preference. Have the roles assigned when they make it to lobby.
3)
What if we implement multiple solutions?
People come into the lobby with given roles they queued for.
People have time to discuss before picking, to best make a teamcomp with their chosen roles (Maybe trade roles? It could be unofficial or official)
Add vote kick in case someone picks Rally Revive jungle Soraka or is just being a problem.


Sure, it would take more time to implement all 3 of those, but what problem isn't solved by that combination?
Vote kick because 4 people don't want to play support? Well one person already agreed to support form the team-finder.
People troll picking their assigned role from team-finder? Vote kick eliminates the problem.
Forcing people to take time to discuss I think would literally solve most of the problems by itself, but the blanket approach might be better.


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davin

Senior User Researcher

03-13-2013
40 of 55 Riot Posts

Hey all--I have to get back to the research-mines. Thanks for the great discussion and ideas. This is something we're really, really interested in making better. Your help is pretty essential to that, since ultimately any solution needs to reflect what we all want as players.


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Theamp4

Senior Member

03-13-2013

The only one I agree with is number 2.

BUT the problem has been stated that it is going to either enforce a meta, be too constraining, create bad behavior if two people want to queue as mid, and it's also been suggested that people do it by lanes. That also has it's own problems. What if I DON'T want to lane with someone at bot lane? Well now the other guy that wanted to bot lane and I are going to be arguing, so we are back at square one.

What I propose is to have a small box that we can type in, stating what we prefer to do in maybe... 10-15 words/100 characters at most? That allows me to say:

"Hello, I prefer to Bottom Lane Solo, though I can do it with a partner."

This gives a better way to explain where I would like to go, and if people are not *******s about it, a happy medium could be found. BUT this does not fix the problem of one person wanting to go mid, but this one wants mid as well, and neither want to give up the role without both going mid. So I think to fix this, maybe have a system that scans each person's box, and picks up keywords that have been noticed lately by the system itself (as well as terms that have been put in by Riot themselves), of which can help sort people accordingly. An example of this would be:

5 random people queue up at the same time, they don't feel like following the meta(of the current time), and this happens.

1: "I would like to mid with a partner."
2: "I would like solo top."
3: "I would like to duo bot with my friend."
4: "Is the friend that wants to duo bot."
5: "Mid, with or without partner."

In that example, the system would read through each one accordingly before queueing them together. It notices that 1 WANTS to mid with a partner, while 5 is fine with or without, so it will queue them together in the same game. It notices number 2 has no one else wanting that lane, and it queues them with the other 2, and it notices 3 and 4 both want bottom duo, so it queues them with the other 3.

An example of what it WON'T do:

Random 5 people chosen for queueing up.

1: "I would like to mid solo."
2: "I would like to go mid without a partner."
3: "Bottom, no partner."
4: "Bottom, with partner."
5: "Bottom, without partner."

The system reads this, and notes that 3 people are disagreeing on bot lane, so it removes those 3 from that queue, and adds them to a different one, as well as the first two, as they both disagree with each other, so it then pushes them to a different queue.

I think this system would work, though it will increase queue times somewhat, depending on how open the player is. If the player is open to all roles, then he will find a queue almost instantly, but if someone just says "mid solo or afk", then he will have a longer queue time, so it encourages you to learn other roles to lower queue time, though it is not necessary to queue.


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Aphoristic

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Senior Member

03-13-2013

I'm just going to toss out this quick idea here. Instead of flat out enforcing queues for each role, how about some sort of a preferred role system? You could weight the roles people want to play to make them more likely to be matched with people who play the other roles instead of flat out forcing people to play specific roles (which could lead to a whole mess of problems).


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BobbyTabless

Member

03-13-2013

Just formally recommending pick order, or even better coding it directly into champ select is the solution that solves all the problems.

- It means that over the course of their games players are sharing the most popular roles.
- Players will end up playing their least favorite role the least amount of times possible (only if they are last pick and all other roles have been taken)
- Players will be forced to learn other roles, which means they will get better at them raising overall skill levels (when players fight to the death not to go support, they tend to be really bad supports)
- Players still have the OPTION of negotiating roles, so that aspect is not lost, but they can choose to put their foot down and choose what they want if its not taken by those above them.

I mean the fact that the higher up you get in ranked the more people respect pick order is a testament to the fact that it is the best system (at least with how things are set up now). I have NEVER seen a popular streamer be in champ select and there be an argument over roles "NO I CALLED IT FIRST".


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ZeroSoulreaver

Senior Member

03-13-2013

The role queue thing is a terrible idea, it takes away the aspect of champion select pick/bans/counters as a whole. It will also cause a ton of issues with players who don't instantly call roles as soon as they enter lobby. Not everyone should be forced into picking a role before knowing their teammates champions.


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DrUnne

Senior Member

03-13-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by davin View Post
Hey all--I have to get back to the research-mines. Thanks for the great discussion and ideas. This is something we're really, really interested in making better. Your help is pretty essential to that, since ultimately any solution needs to reflect what we all want as players.
Thanks for taking the time to speak with us!


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Kirvinn

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Member

03-13-2013

I think the main thing that would be nice to tackle is the problem with pick vs call in blind pick and who gets to play what.

My approach to solving this would be by the "WoW dungeon finder" method in a specific fashion. Just noting this is an idea off of the top of my head that I thought was good.

Steps
1) Players can Select roles/champions they are willing to play. By roles I do not mean mid/jungle/adc. Riot already has roles in the game (tank/fighter/mage/support). More could be added to expand on this (pusher/carry/roamer etc).

2)Players queue for draft game.

3)Players enter a team through matchmaking. Before any players can speak to one another they have X amount of time to see what champions/roles the other players have selected. If a player does not like the setup they can opt to "dodge" (say if 2 players had only mage selected).

There could be several configuration with this. Such as a minimum requirement for selected roles/champions. Or a vote where if one player opts out the other nine do not leave and instead they can vote by checklist on what they think the team needs, then a player with that type selected is pulled in to fill that spot before selection begins. It could also lead to easier team building.

Also this does not perfectly solve pick/call. It just makes it easier to tell what your team is likely to be and to have the option to play with a differently (maybe) structured team. I don't think there is a solution to pick vs call with the current draft pick unless one is eliminated.




On an unrelated note:

I think a system where you can see what champions are owned by other players in your queue to allow for better setup of champion switching/team organization would be very nice. I like the suggestion of showing which players has what by putting numbers of those summoners at the top of each champion portrait.