Let's talk about Champ Select

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Aithòs

Senior Member

03-13-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by davin View Post
There's some pretty good ideas in this thread, actually. The question of how big of a deal meta enforcing is is worth approaching. From this thread, there's definitely some people who are strongly against that idea. Creating a state where new strategies can not emerge is creating its own special problem that we are very sensitive to. Any solutions we apply should still allow for player flexibility in choosing how they want to play the game.
I already posted on page 54, but please go read my thread about the meta and my concept for a role preference queue. I think it probably got buried but has a lot of relevant information and has gotten a lot of positive feedback. Honestly, I think it's on the right track of what you guys want...

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/....php?t=3169771

The "meta" as most people talk about it has nothing to do with a preference selection or a role queue at all. People are worried that suddenly their champion pool is going to be limited based on what role they play, or that they won't be able to run kills lanes bottom, etc. All a role queue would do is indicate where on the map you want to play, which is static and largely unchanged in ages because the map doesn't really change.

Even if you made selections: top, mid, bot-carry, bot-support, jungle you still have the opportunity to talk with your team about doing a kill lane or running dual mids. It just means if you're assigned bot-support you need to talk with your adc and mid and see if they are open to the idea, which is a heck of a lot easier after you eliminate the position argument. Right now you have almost no chance of running that because you first have to decide where everyone is going and THEN see if people want to do something out of the ordinary.


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C4KE

Senior Member

03-13-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fisherman Fizz View Post
I'd like to see better ways of letting players communicate their champ select preferences with other players. Right now the only way is to just type it in chat which leads to people racing to type "mid" first and just causes lots of arguments. It'd be neat if there was a way to automatically display a player's preferences next to their name on the left of the screen, but in a way that DOESN'T make any mention of lanes whatsoever. I have two ideas that would do that:

1. Allowing a player to go into their profile and pick a few champions as their favorites. When entering into a queue, the portraits of the 3 (or some other number) champions that they marked as their favorite would show up next to their name in the lobby and be immediately visible to everyone, without having to type out anything.

So if I were to go into champion select doing this, by my name it'd show the portraits for Fizz, Twitch, and Draven and people getting into a lobby with me would instantly be able to see that those are my favorite 3 champions.

2. This is very similar to the first idea, but rather than using champions, a player would select a few of the tags Riot uses to classify champions (assassin, support, jungler, fighter, etc.) and those tags would display by their name in the lobby, or there could be another option that just says "no preference" as well. This way a player would have a way to immediately show his teammates what type of champions he prefers to play without locking those types into a specific lane or role.

So if I went into a game, the other players would easily be able to see that I prefer to play Assassins the most, Carries second, and Supports third.

I'd want a feature like this to be picked by the player and not just automatically generated based off their number of games played or win rates though. Especially if there isn't a large sample of games played by the person, it wouldn't be as accurate as just letting the player pick their preferences themselves. It might also be a good idea to give players one option to say a champion or role that they DON'T like playing or are bad at. So, if someone isn't good at jungling they could easily communicate that to their team.
This could work as well. I think this is yet another good idea.


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Faemles

Senior Member

03-13-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by davin View Post
There's some pretty good ideas in this thread, actually. The question of how big of a deal meta enforcing is is worth approaching. From this thread, there's definitely some people who are strongly against that idea. Creating a state where new strategies can not emerge is creating its own special problem that we are very sensitive to. Any solutions we apply should still allow for player flexibility in choosing how they want to play the game.
A red quoted me. My life is a step closer to being complete!

But dont you think that a normal que without position restrictions (heh a rhyme) would solve that as much as i like the idea of being able to que up for mid and jungle i know i would use a normal que option as well


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Eizeru

Senior Member

03-13-2013

Here are my thoughts on each given option in very quick statements:

1) Vote kick would would help smooth teams out until they have teammates and a team comp they are comfortable with. This really helps games start out with an easy going feeling for everyone on both teams. The downside is that premades would run rampant on players not playing what they want them to and that people would kick someone for "trolling" because they picked unpopular champs in unconventional roles.

2) A role queue system would be a very smooth operation. No one has to argue about what they get and everyone gets what they want and is happy. However, teammates might not accept your champ for what role you queued for and there is the thin line of what champs qualify as each role. People may also queue as something unpopular for a shorter queue time and then troll to get a different role once they are in. People may argue that this also enforces the meta.

3) Prisoner's Island doesn't really show benefits in my opinion. It gives almost no incentive to reform and divides the player base and prevents a lot of equally skilled players from ever being matched up.

In my opinion, option 2 is the best simply because it does indeed make queueing a much smoother process. No one really has to queue feeling the pressure of the impending team argument about who gets what. The community generally knows what champs fits what roles and if they want to try something odd, they should communicate it to their team and make them comfortable to the idea. As for tolls queueing differently, I don't really see a benefit. Why complicate a system they know will work if they are just patient. We have trolls anyways as it is so there can be ways implemetned to alleviate this. It's not really a perfect idea right now but there is so much work that could go into this option and I see it having the most room for progress compared to the other two options.


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YoshioPeePee

Senior Member

03-13-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheWildHamBeast View Post
Would it be possible for matchmaking to match this rare perfect scenario that we have all experienced which feels so damn good:

You enter into champ select with your main role in mind(Jungle) and you realize you're last pick. The chances of supporting by default is pretty high.

Everyone immediately calls out their roles and it just so happens that all the chips fall perfectly into place.

2nd pick wants to support because that's all he has known and actually enjoys doing it. 1st pick wants to do ADC and asks 2nd pick what support he likes to play.

3rd pick prefers to top and 4th pick types "sweet guys, I'm boss at mid"

Then they ask if it's okay if you want to jungle, but 3rd pick is actually okay with jungling if you would rather top.

Warm fuzzies just explode all over, go change your pants son.

Suddenly your league goes back to lobby "Summoner 1 has left"

"Damn you summoner 1!!!!" you cry out.
this actually happens all the time, what you need for it however is:

1, everyone in champ select being willing to talk to each other, and doing so right away

2. everyone in champ select caring more about the overall team comp than what role they end up getting

this is a tall order for ranked, i'm a big "i want a viable team comp so i will let others people have the roles they want and i'll fill what's left" kind of guy, but even i have started to think that i'd probably win more games if i demanded my best roles (adc and support) more often.


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Mr Pizza

Member

03-13-2013

Prisoners Island is a bad idea IMO. If you put a group of bad people together, it will only get worse for them. They wont have a chance to improve their behavior.


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Jester Swordgard

Junior Member

03-13-2013

As far as I can see the main issue with having any type of vote-kick is that there is an inherent link between the players in the chat and how they are affected by the kick. This is the equivalent of asking people after the game if they would like to not be queued up with the same player ever again with people they perceived as being feeders. This sort of situation does not occur with a tribunal since realistically the odds of judging a friend or someone you played with are very low. Is there no way to implement a "game lobby tribunal" as it is happening (either through a live tribunal queue or web live feed of the data?), where each player can be kicked out by majority of the tribunal. Obviously the people playing would have no say in the matter as they would be biased and could kick only because someone wants mid when somebody else does, and when you go into Game Lobby Tribunal (which only takes the amount of time a normal lobby takes) you are seeing a random game lobby as it occurs, this way there is no way friends would gank up on anyone since it would all be random. The game lobby tribunal could then vote within the last 30 seconds if a kick is needed.

This would prevent any sort of bias, and we could add some things to that idea such as: A player may only be kicked if both the GLT wants to kick him AND the team agrees (at 4 to 1? or 3 to 2?). Furthermore, you would not see if your lobby is being watched by the GLT, this way you are consistently expected to be nice. Being kicked once would not bring you to the normal tribunal or give you a sanction immediately, but repeat offenders would get sanctions. This prevent both abuse by players who are often unco-operating, prevents getting bullied by premade and allows to some degree "non standard meta" if the team is okay with it (if the tribunal wants to kick but team doesnt).


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davin

Senior User Researcher

03-13-2013
29 of 55 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anrita View Post
Agreed, you'd need to pick one or more templates and one or more roles within each template that you're willing to play, and then the matchmaking queue would have to pick a template for the team and assign roles to each player according to what they were willing to play. Also, these preferences should be savable and nameable like mastery pages so that once you've set one up, you can reuse it infinitely.

In addition to eliminating conflicts over positioning in champ select, this would also address the problem of people disagreeing about conformance to "the meta".
This is pretty interesting. I suspect you'd want the system to automatically provide popular templates or the like in order to not create a giant burden on new players.


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Vichar

Senior Member

03-13-2013

I'm kind of skeptical of the cognitive biases. I'm sure we've all thought we'd be best at a role. Regardless of whether that's true or not, what if that person simply wants to play that role whether they would be good at it or not?

I would like to think well of everyone. In my limited experience, in practical terms this effectively translates into letting people take advantage of my good nature. People will speed along and cut in front of me in a clogged exit lane because I let them. In champ select, people will go mid and this means I have to support.

At the end of the day, I would prefer some kind of "fair" system, where maybe you don't always get to play your preferred role but at least sometimes you get to play it. It need not even be enforceable. But I would really prefer some system that almost guarantees that you won't be "forced" to take the same role, game after game, if you do not want to play that role. If, for example, pick order were randomly determined, I would be perfectly happy with pick order determining who gets to choose which role. However, right now I'm seeing that duos tend to be the last 2 pick slots.

I know it's been suggested a bunch of times, but it might be nice if you could state a role preference before you even get matched with your teammates. I know this will extend queue times, and I have heard a bunch of other reasons why this might be a bad idea (oh, we don't want to reinforce the prevailing meta...). If this could be done, I think it would be ideal. Of course, some roles (support come to mind) that are under-represented in the population might cause its own slew of problems. It would be nice if there had never been a zero CS meta...


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Sir Grendel

Senior Member

03-13-2013

I think queuing up for a particular role shouldn't be an issue, if you don't have a role in mind they're should be a fill option. 99% of the time if your not a total jerk to your team mates you can swap roles in ranked if it benefits the team.

I think bruiser mids/ assassins mid is a pretty common thing these days, even in normals I've had my team be cool with me going vi mid. I don't think this will cause an issue, most of everyone picks in order to make a strong team comp so people will compliment your pick usually.

I just feel like this would solve sooo many issues with the game, people get overly defensive and immediately start acting like complete tools in champ select, this carries over to the game.

Also I want to focus on last hitting but in most of my games I just end up getting stuck as support or jungle because I don't like to cause tension so I always fill what the team needs. This also would help this problem.