Let's talk about Champ Select

First Riot Post
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Mayanz

Member

03-13-2013

I've been playing on the BR server (i have like 40 ranked games) It is strange that almost never ppl call roles, or when they do, the other ppl say "respect pick order" so nowadays is like a standar respecting the order and conflict is almost never presented don't know why.
Maybe if you find a why to stick the idea of "pick order over calling" people will get used to that, reducing the pre-game arguing.


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AbyssalSpector

Senior Member

03-13-2013

My favorite solution is the wow dungeon finder system. Pick a role to queue for and get paired with poeple who picked different roles. Make sure its possible to pick more than 1 role.

The queue times will undoubtedly be longer, but this pretty much solves everything


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davin

Senior User Researcher

03-13-2013
14 of 55 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by RadiantLuna View Post
This is a little confusing, isn't it more likely that in almost everyone's cases their teammates will make more game costing mistakes than they will? This is because there is only 1 of the player in question and 4 teammates (usually) each game- your teammates are also far more likely to make plays that win the game.
Sort of--it's more likely that within a given game a non-you person will be responsible for a mistake (assuming you all have equal mistake chances / skill), but NOT more likely than any given player will have a higher chance of making a mistake.

We all make mistakes, but we remember the ones that others make much more strongly.


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IS12c9caee90c700fc71890

Senior Member

03-13-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyte View Post
2) In-Game Context | This scenario illustrates the conflict between Pick Order and Call Order. When there are literally no guidelines, at best, half of the players believe in Pick Order and half believe in Call Order—we’ve created a situation where conflicts are expected rather than rare.
I think it's common knowledge well over half the players know pick order is the law, simply because there is no other order in the game, we can't change this, YOU can, it's in the system, guy above gets to go mid because he gets to pick while you can't, simple as that, and frankly it's better than anarchy, sure, negotiate and all but as you said, if 2 players won't cooperate, pick order prevails, end of story, untill you give us something else.


As for the suggestions:

1) Could work, but it could come with problems, it has to be a 4/5 vote and premades shouldn't be allowed, in fact, this might be a good time to remove duo queue from solo queue.

2) The best solution IMO, **** this fear of stagnating the game, you don't have to queue up for roles, just place:
1- Jungle
2 - Mid
3 - Shared lane
4 - Support
5 - Solo lane
6 - Anything (fastest queues, 99% of the time = support)

This let's you queue up for the current metagame as top, but it doesn't mean it's a queue for top, it's a queue for the non-mid solo lane, if the metagame changes, this would change with it, the tricky part is the shared lane/support, it's possible it would have to be 2 "Shared lanes" but I'm also fairly sure it would create conflicts between support and ADC, not to mention the dual bruiser lanes, then again I'm sure most supports would be more than happy to pick a bruiser to go with the team's supposed-to-be-ADC in a double bruiser lane, it can be fun.

3)Rune prison is a must, and it doesn't have anything to do with this issue, it's supposed to fix the comminity itself, or at least, keep it clean.


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Viro Melchior

Senior Member

03-13-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by davin View Post
Let's talk about these two points a little. From a queue time standpoint, a standard-meta queue actually wouldn't be too lengthy. When you take into account the multiple ways of playing support (Tank/Support/Kill Lane) and the players who are fine to fill all roles, you actually have around 15 to 20% of players being down for Jungle and Support (depending region and definition of those roles). So queue time may actually be less of an issue than it'd seem based on the popular perception of those roles as less-favored.

There may be other reasons why players aren't volunteering support in Ranked even though we know they are probably down for it. There's the potential for "have to carry your team!" perceptions pushing people out of the role, or the feeling of not being able to strongly influence what's happening, etc. As a support main, I'm not in agreement with those ideas, but I definitely recognize they're out there

Regardless, the dungeon-finder approach relies upon the idea of forcing a single ranked-style meta. And even though a ton of players do play the bruiser-top, mage-mid, carry/support bottom, jungle layout, there's successful strategies that rely on assassins mid, jungle-mages, carry/support top, etc. I think a decent amount of players wouldn't be down with a queue that only allows for one team layout.
Not necessarily.
Make role-selection a button that brings up an entirely new screen (window overlay, doesn't close you out of what you're doing).

Divide it up into:
Support
Assassin
Bruiser
Tank
Damage

Divide each of those up by general concept. For example, Assassin:
Jungler
Duo Lane
Solo Lane
AP
AD

Support could be:
Healer
CC
Damage

With multiple being selectable, you would have 20-25 check boxes players could tick. Then the dungeon finder feature can form a team, either with 2 duo lanes, or a jungler. It can make sure someone on the team is AD, and someone is AP. It can make sure the team has a tank or a bruiser. It can make sure the team has at least 2 damage/assassin players. And it can try and get a support onto the team.

It won't result in perfect meta-fitting teams, but it could still help.


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Gnomis Pervertus

Senior Member

03-13-2013

Champion select can be ... very discomforting to some players. Myself included. I'm undiagnosed, but I probably have some kind of social disorder(I self-diagnosed myself would avoidant personality disorder, I know, don't do that >P). Some of us just aren't comfortable with confrontation, or wilt in the face of it... heck, everytime I enter queue, I'm just as hesitent to enter it as I am eager to enter it. I -love- the game... I'm just afraid of people and confrontation for roles. Go figure.

I had something longer here, but I decided to scrap it... because it was becoming a book and was probably me just repeating back things everyone already knows/made no sense... ^_^ (I do that...)


I will input on real-life context, though. It's probably more on the player to react to this, rather than to make a system to deal with it. The best approach, I would think, would be education on how to identify when you're at risk for a toxic game(s) due to real-life pressures and stresses. I've seen people who go into queue and know they have to leave partway through. They should already know ahead of time they can't complete a game and bow out instead of jumping into queue. People who have to leave immediatly because of an emergency can't really forsee this, though.

Players have the ability to control the exposure of their real-life stresses in game by recognizing when they shouldn't enter queue, and do something else to wind down so it's not as big of an issue. One way I do this, when I can actually bring myself to enter queue, is tell myself, "okay, I'm probably going to get trolled this game, I might do badly, but I'll try my best, and there's a chance I won't get the role I want." I don't know if it works... but I don't seem to rage(in game. I rant and swear at my screen once in a while, though... I'm only human)

As for role-queueing... I can see how this -might- help, but I don't feel it would be an ideal route. Since champions aren't static toward one specific role, and might fill different roles(and still be considered troll picks in some roles, even if vaguely viable), it seems really difficult to "enforce". On top of that, introducing a role queue would be as good as solidifying a specific meta. It would make it even more difficult to evolve or adapt into a new one, even though people are resistant to change by nature. By "punishing" for going outside the role queue, you'd be killing any chance at experimenting with a new way of playing, because you'd be "trolling and ruining a game".

A vote-kick -might- be a way to go about it in team-select. But this does have the opening for abuse in normals(where it would still be useful, not just ranked). In ranked... it could still be abused, but might be less likely to be abused. A case where it might be considered for abuse, would be the mid locks in Annie. There hasn't been any fighting over the roles, so all's good. Then the enemy team locks in a champion that just beats Annie in every way, shape or form... and then top counter-picks themself.

Suddenly you're in a position where you don't want to enter the game because you're at a disadvantage, but -you- don't want to suffer the dodge penalty. So four people agree to vote-kick the person they blame the most to avoid getting penalized themself. It could probably be moderated, yes, but moderation would come after the fact. And likely, only if the same people were forcing its usage like that repeatedly. Who knows. It could be very risky, but very useful.

As for prisoner's island for toxic players ... well, I'll admit I'd love it if toxic players had to play with themself... but it in no way promotes them to get better. And you also run the risk of border-line toxic players being slipped down into the prisoner's island, and then imitating the behaviours they see there, thinking it's normal... borderline players gradually become toxic from exposure.

I view it as trying to treat alcoholism by giving alcoholics alcohol until they smarten up from it. I'd like to apologize to any recovering alcoholics reading that line as well. Keep it up, you're doing great.

(I still wrote a book...)


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Goth Skunk

Senior Member

03-13-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyte View Post
These are some major problems with Champ Select that we’ve identified in our research. So what’s next? A lot of players have suggested the following:

1) Vote Kick | Players want the ability to vote kick toxic players from Champ Select.
Yes. Absolutely. In addition, the kicked player ought to suffer the same penalty as if they had dodged the game: A LeaverBuster timeout and a loss of LP.

The problem with this feature though is a possibility of abuse. Assuming you need 3/4 votes majority to kick someone from Champ select, what's to stop a group of soloQ pugs from deciding 'That Galio pick is a really bad idea against this team of full AD champs. Let's kick him!' and booting the player out despite a lack of negative behaviour?

One COULD make the requirement to kick a unanimous decision, but then DuoQ's would be immune, as a toxic duoQ player will NEVER be voted against by his partner.

Nevertheless, I think the option still needs to be implemented. When there's one guy in champ select who is utterly destroying team morale before all the champions have been banned, he's holds the rest of the team hostage if he's aware of his power. It becomes a mental game of chicken, where said player's stance is 'I didn't get what I want, so I'm going to make the game a living hell for you. But I'm also not going to dodge. If I don't get what I want, I'm taking the rest of you down with me.'
Quote:

2) WoW Dungeon Finder | Players want the ability to queue up for a particular role like “Healer” and “DPS” and placed into a Champ Select with a team
This is another possible option. The only drawback I can see to this is an increase in matchmaking time given that players are queuing up with the intent on playing a particular lane/role.

Plus, a potential problem:
Player A queues up with an intent to play 'Top Lane'. Average wait time to find a game now jumps from an average of 45 seconds to 5 minutes based on how many other players are saying the same thing. Player A doesn't like that, so he de-queues and re-queues and now selects "I have no preference/fill" Matchmaking finds him a game in the usual 45 seconds.

First thing Player A says when he enters champ select is 'Top lane.' Meanwhile, Player B, who was waiting in excess of five minutes to play a game because he queued up with a top lane preference now finds himself having to compete with player A for the role.

Quote:
3) Prisoner’s Island | Players want matchmaking to pair toxic players with toxic players, and positive players with positive players.
A good idea in principle, but incredibly poor in practice. I believe the trip to Prisoner's Island is one-way.

Let's say you have three levels of players: Positive, Negative, and Neutral. Your positive and neutral players stay on the mainland, and the Negative players all stay on Prisoner's Island.

Positive players will likely stay on the mainland. Neutral players may occasionally drift, skirting the line between negative and positive from game to game. But if a Neutral player has more negative games on average, then the chances increase for them one day ending up on Prisoner's Island. This presents a problem because inherently, the people on Prisoner's Island are the worst of the worst. Once you're there, the negativity infects you. It possesses you. You become one with the negativity because it's battering you from every direction. Once you're on Prisoner's Island, there's no coming back. This means that the only losers under this system are the unfortunate outliers in the positive and neutral communities who unfortunately slip up one too many times. for the system to accept.

And if you happened to be one of these neutral or positive players that end up on Prisoner's Island, then the fun of the game is gone from you and you end up losing a member of the community because they don't want to play the game anymore.


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nifboy

Junior Member

03-13-2013

For me the hardest thing is getting consistent practice on a champion in Top or Mid. I can't say "I want to Mid Ahri for five games straight because I want to learn how to play her" because I won't bully people out in champ select if they pick mid first.

And if I play three support/adc/jungle games in between Mid Ahri games, I barely remember a thing about playing her.


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Ektomorf

Senior Member

03-13-2013

Everyone keeps mentioning "Vote kicking players because someone has lolking'd or they pick weak champions"

Who here has honestly raged at someone in lobby because they pick weak champs or has poor stats on lolking?

if you have your part of the problem.................................


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DeanKeaton259

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Senior Member

03-13-2013

Having people respect the pick order is the most effective way to solve ALL of the problems of champion select.

If this were a rule to be followed as part of the summoners code for example, how much of a decrease in toxicity do you think would be observed almost immediately?

When people queue up for ranked, they need to realize that the #1 most important thing is for you to work with your team. The easiest way to do this is by following pick order.

If you're last pick, you can suggest which roles you are good at, but you absolutely have no right to pick whatever you want. You need to pick according to what your teammates picked before you.

Riot refusing to take a stance on this has empowered more people to troll and it's pretty sad. I don't have to deal with this problem almost at all because my ranked mmr is pretty high. The majority of the people I get on my team all respect the pick order.

They respect the pick order because following it allowed them to reach the high mmr they are at today.