Let's talk about Champ Select

First Riot Post
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reallyslowloader

Senior Member

03-13-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by davin View Post
Let's talk about these two points a little. From a queue time standpoint, a standard-meta queue actually wouldn't be too lengthy. When you take into account the multiple ways of playing support (Tank/Support/Kill Lane) and the players who are fine to fill all roles, you actually have around 15 to 20% of players being down for Jungle and Support (depending region and definition of those roles). So queue time may actually be less of an issue than it'd seem based on the popular perception of those roles as less-favored.

There may be other reasons why players aren't volunteering support in Ranked even though we know they are probably down for it. There's the potential for "have to carry your team!" perceptions pushing people out of the role, or the feeling of not being able to strongly influence what's happening, etc. As a support main, I'm not in agreement with those ideas, but I definitely recognize they're out there

Regardless, the dungeon-finder approach relies upon the idea of forcing a single ranked-style meta. And even though a ton of players do play the bruiser-top, mage-mid, carry/support bottom, jungle layout, there's successful strategies that rely on assassins mid, jungle-mages, carry/support top, etc. I think a decent amount of players wouldn't be down with a queue that only allows for one team layout.
Why not have one matchmaking queue thats tries this system out. If a high percentage of the players enjoy this type of system you can implement into ranked.

I feel like the player base enforces the meta anyway because "OMG we have no support gg. Whose gonna place all the wards i wont buy?"

I feel like this system could never be implemented into blind pick because everyone picks at the same time. This is where people could try new meta's.


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tolore

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Senior Member

03-13-2013

Actually since it's been brought up, and I've sort of touched on this in my posts but I figured I'd make it explicit, reds keep bringing up "build confidence in other players picks" I don't think that's the right approach or the problem.

Again for me personally, I don't care if I trust all 4 other players to play adc, mid, top, and jungle better than me, I am not going to support. I'd rather just lose the 3lp or whatever the penalty is and dodge than win a game playing support. Similar but less extreme for jungle, if I really think everyone's going to do great in their roles I'll usually let myself get convinced to jungle, but there's a decent chance of having a bad experience.


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Zivstatic

Junior Member

03-13-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by davin View Post
Let's talk about these two points a little. From a queue time standpoint, a standard-meta queue actually wouldn't be too lengthy. When you take into account the multiple ways of playing support (Tank/Support/Kill Lane) and the players who are fine to fill all roles, you actually have around 15 to 20% of players being down for Jungle and Support (depending region and definition of those roles). So queue time may actually be less of an issue than it'd seem based on the popular perception of those roles as less-favored.

There may be other reasons why players aren't volunteering support in Ranked even though we know they are probably down for it. There's the potential for "have to carry your team!" perceptions pushing people out of the role, or the feeling of not being able to strongly influence what's happening, etc. As a support main, I'm not in agreement with those ideas, but I definitely recognize they're out there

Regardless, the dungeon-finder approach relies upon the idea of forcing a single ranked-style meta. And even though a ton of players do play the bruiser-top, mage-mid, carry/support bottom, jungle layout, there's successful strategies that rely on assassins mid, jungle-mages, carry/support top, etc. I think a decent amount of players wouldn't be down with a queue that only allows for one team layout.

I get what you are saying. But why couldn't we simplify it a bit and just go with queue for a lane. Example I queue for mid, I can play whatever champ I want mage, bruiser, assassin but everyone knows that I am taking that champ mid. You guys don't want to force a meta. I get that. But I think for the lower tiers this will solve a lot of problems.


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Salenar

Senior Member

03-13-2013

I think communication is the key.

In my opinion when you head into champ select and someone shouts "MID OR I FEED" it is probably becuase they would like to play mid. Probably.

But is mid the only position they would ever, ever want to play? Probably not.

Most people (myself included) shout out our roles becuase it is our best role and we want to do our best.

I main jungle. I love jungle. I will try to "call" jungle when I can. But that doesn't mean I wouldn't be fine with playing an adc or top champ. I like both those positions too.

If we had more time to communicate with each other I could talk to that other guy who called jungle and talk it out and figure that if he also mains jungle and instead I can go top.

Basically I have a very long post earlier in the thread about a "Strategy Phase" that gives us a minute or so BEFORE choosing champions to discuss amongst ouselves and communicate properly.


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davin

Senior User Researcher

03-13-2013
12 of 55 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Viliphied View Post
The other problem with this is if someone chooses an unconventional support (say, Nidalee), they could subject themselves to lots of "Y U Q SUPPORT IF U NO PICK SUPPORT" *****ing.
Definitely an issue--if you're doing role signalling (or any other kind of signalling, like just saying "I'll support!" in chat and then picking revive/smite Yi and going bot), it forms a sort of informal contract with your team. It'd require different ways for players to resolve violations of that contract (e.g., reporting, kicking, etc.). Similarly, the way you're playing may not meet the expectations of what "support" is. If it's getting the job done (I've seen great Nid supports), are you actually violating that contract?


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xNECROx

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Senior Member

03-13-2013

My concerns with vote kick.

1. Wouldn't it be abusable? Our team was outpicked so lets have 3-4 people vote someone out so we can requeue.

2. It might result in unpopular champions/roles being kicked as "trolls". Maybe I want to play AD TF bot, should I get kicked? Whats my punishment.
--
Dungeon WoW -

The role sortof works but what if I wanted to do something weird like double jungle with my duo queue or try a strange combination bot like double bruiser or double adc. I feel the roles are already stale sometimes and implementing something like the WoW thing might cement the game forever to a certain meta.
--

I go into games 100% willing to play any role. If I'm last pick, I'll pick up Nami. If I'm jungling or top, I'll gangplank. IF I'm mid I'll counterpick. I think it is more exciting to not know exactly what i want to play until champ select.


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Elsaliss

Senior Member

03-13-2013

I think that personally, negative behavior can stem from the very beginning of the champ selection. I use a comp that loads into the champ select late, always. As such, sometimes I won't see chat that people typed because of the fact that I entered late. In a real situation, I might think that nothing was called so I would pick what I pleased, only to have my team rage at me for picking a role another player 'called'.

Toxicity also comes from the fact that some players truly believe calling comes before pick order in draft pick. When they don't get the lane they 'called' they will purposefully try to get another player to dodge for them so they can requeue. When two people pick at the same time and want the same role, one player will usually instalock their champion instead of communicating.



I think a way to reduce toxicity would be to remove the instalock button. What are your thoughts on this?


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Viro Melchior

Senior Member

03-13-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by davin View Post
We actually agree here. Players are rather in favor of this, probably because it's a pretty intuitively appealing approach ("just put jerks with jerks and let them be jerks forever / change to get out!"). From research we've done we know that players think this is a good idea (close to 75% of players, actually!). Lyte can talk some about why from a behavior standpoint it might actually end up doing more harm than good.
Prisoner's Island could be an optional solution to perma bans. By the time a player has reached this point, Riot has given up on their reform (hence Riots stance against reversing perma-bans based on improved behavior that used to be available). Therefore, these players aren't going to "get worse" playing in Prisoner's Island, then bring that behavior back to the main group. Getting sent here is permanent. Long queue times, larger skill gaps between players, huge level of toxicity, but hey, they can still play instead of being perma-banned.


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CaptainAMorgan

Senior Member

03-13-2013

Why not simply start with recording pre-game chat?

Then probe the community in survey manner.

I think at the end of the day the problems stem from the conceptions the game has created. The positional picking.

People have really lost their creativity vs what people call the "meta".

People don't have the simple concepts of the game down. Maybe even call them "high level" because of this fact.

Simple mechanical counters, composition counters, positional counters, etc.


These are things that most players don't really have down in my honest opinion. These are both skills and understandings. Being able to pick a counter and execute your best job of performing that counter. The only thing that separates the "pros" from everyone else is a true understanding of the team based concepts. Even pick order is thrown into the equation, whereas even in Gold (top 8-2%) people don't employ strategic picking. People don't work together as much and that may also be cultural.

Have you looked at other regions and seen the same behavioral issues?
Same picking habits?


I think the key to all this is locating the pockets of players and and their behaviors to determine that sweet solution. But from what I see the issues all stem from these preconceptions of picking into positions, not for teamwork or compositions.

People seem to think that what is most beneficial for them (painting their own picture with their own colors)
Is picking into what they perceive is the best (Using their own plans and mechanisms to create)

Everyone is painting their own picture on a huge canvas. No one is working together to make the biggest and best work of art.

RIOT has done a great job of designing the game for a team feel with so much AOE damage, but the real issues occur when certain roles cannot provide what people perceive as what wins games (damage). This is a HUGE misconception that most people have. It hurts the development of the game because AOE is so important in the game overall. Being able to kill a guy and move on, so everyone has this conception and they bring it to draft.

There are plenty other options, so many it's insane when you compare to Dota. There are certainly more combinations of factors, but that is also a part of what happens when there are so many damn awesome things they made in the game.

Whatever, that was all over the place.


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Cether

Senior Member

03-13-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyte View Post

Regarding showing the top 5 champions stat to players in Champ Select, we're very intentional and deliberate when deciding what stats to show players. If we showed players the top 5 champions, doesn't it create a perception that if the players are not playing one of their most experienced champions that the team is at a disadvantage?
Mmm perhaps. Usually when I notice someone isn't playing one of their best champs ( I lolking a lot ) I assume they know what they're doing and have an acceptable reason for it. Although I also think "I just didn't feel like it" is an acceptable reason. I can't count on everyone else seeing things the way I do, but I like to believe most people are trying to be as positive as possible. The idea was there mostly for people who play less popular champions. For example:

I see a person lock Syndra. Syndra is an unpopular champion believed by many to be very underpowered. Suddenly 3/5 people on my team get this sinking feeling because they know they have a perceived "weak" champion on their team. Team morale has already been hit hard, and a lack of high morale is the catalyst for someone to snap.

Now imagine we can see that this person plays a lot of Syndra. And combined with my first idea, they have an AP Carry Win % above 60%. Suddenly instead of taking a huge hit to the morale my team is a lot more confident.


It's just my theory anyways. I really only play super popular champions, but I have nothing against off-picks. What I can't stand though is what it does to my teams mentality when someone does pick one of those champions, and I would love to see this potentially remedied in some way.