Let's talk about Champ Select

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FactsofLife

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Senior Member

03-13-2013

Use the dungeon finder method.

You have 6 choices before entering match making

a) top
b) mid
c) jungle
d) adc
e) support
f) any

When you are matched with your team it will show your choice stamped so everyone knows what you intended to play. There will be no champion restrictions for two reasons, first to prevent people from choosing less conventional but still viable combos and secondly to allow trading for counter picks etc...

edit: also once in the select players could agree to swap roles since mid top and jungle are somewhat interchangeable with many champs in our current meta.

To minimize people abusing this system by selecting support for fastest match time then choosing a mid or top we would need a vote kick option in select as well as strict penalties for reported abusers.

There is no perfect system and there will always be trolls. Those who stick to the role they requested are fine, those who do not and get kicked/reported should ultimately be matched with each other more often.

In essence it requires a mix of all three solutions to optimize ranked solo and duo q.

I think for normals there should be an entirely different approach because it is less serious and should not be as strict an environment.


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davin

Senior User Researcher

03-13-2013
10 of 55 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cameryn Kyre View Post
So... can we just pair players who have the same opinion on pick/call?

It's less complicated and "meta-binding" than queing up by role and will help foster a sense of dialogue and teamwork in building a stronger team because entitlement will be formally removed from the equation outside of pick order/call order.

The toxic players would gravitate towards call order, but if they grow weary of it they can learn another champ or two and try to assimilate into the matchmaking with (hopefully) more reasonable players.
Splitting the queues based on that point of order probably isn't the best solution, as you'd be splitting playerbases. More likely we just want to find a set of solutions that eases the race-condition burden and allows players to build confidence in the team they're forming. Right now champ select is a bit stressful, as you're trying to get information from four people in order to form something that will allow you to succeed. Within a very small time-frame.

That's further complicated by people thinking they're better than the other players in the queue. Dunning-Kruger manifests relatively consistently. For example, we've been doing player behavior perception surveys for some time now. On those surveys, players are much more likely to suggest they very rarely make mistakes that cost the game while other players are doing so much more frequently. On a five-point frequency scale, "my mistakes cost the game" clocks in at a full point above "another player's mistakes cost the game". It can't really be the case that every respondent only rarely costs the game while a given other player frequently does.

That's not an unexpected result, and doesn't mean people are bad or dumb for thinking it. It's just a common bias that humans experience (myself included!). But it does point at one reason why, regardless of the ruleset imposed for picking champions, there will be tensions resulting from a lack of knowledge about what is about to happen (and a lack of clarity around your teammates).


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fig n3wton

Master Recruiter

03-13-2013

As I think more and more about it. The queue finder system (similar to WoW) is the best option all around. Allow people to pick 2 roles they are willing to play and 1 role they do not want to play. This gives enough diversity for the queue finder to do its job and should allow everyone to be happy.


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PwnageBladez

Senior Member

03-13-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyte View Post

1) Vote Kick | Players want the ability to vote kick toxic players from Champ Select.
2) WoW Dungeon Finder | Players want the ability to queue up for a particular role like “Healer” and “DPS” and placed into a Champ Select with a team
3) Prisoner’s Island | Players want matchmaking to pair toxic players with toxic players, and positive players with positive players.

What are some pros and cons to these ideas? Would they work for League?
1) Vote Kick | This could possibly work. There would be more positives than negatives that would be added in result of this. Positive being a better way for the "good" players to enjoy a match without toxic players.

Also, I am often forced to queue dodge because a toxic players on my team is refusing to work with the team. This may help rid of the toxic player without having to leave the match. Win-win for everyone.

Some negatives this adds is that you can be kicked for no reason. I've known people that simply agree to kick a player because they feel like contributing to troll, even if you have done nothing wrong. This shouldn't be too big of a deal if the entire team is required to vote yes.

I say: Yes

2) WoW Dungeon Finder | I disagree with this suggestion. It brings many issues to player versatility and champion popularity. Many players would simply stick to a small hand full of champions and queue up for a particular role. Implementing this to the game would discourage players from being versatile and adapting to their team by their needs.

I say: No

3) Prisoner's Island | Okay, just imagine what this would be. Placing criminals into prisons, and citizens into homes. Although the good players may be happy in their homes, away from toxic players, the prison would be absolute chaotic. Criminal with another criminal, the only result is fighting and bickering.

This would simply create a "hell" and "heaven". It will also put way too much pressure and stress on players. Players would be scared just to queue for a match. Who knows, you might accidently do something bad and your stuck in prison. Not player-friendly if you ask me.

I say: No


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AndThePigGoesMoo

Senior Member

03-13-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by davin View Post
Let's talk about these two points a little. From a queue time standpoint, a standard-meta queue actually wouldn't be too lengthy. When you take into account the multiple ways of playing support (Tank/Support/Kill Lane) and the players who are fine to fill all roles, you actually have around 15 to 20% of players being down for Jungle and Support (depending region and definition of those roles). So queue time may actually be less of an issue than it'd seem based on the popular perception of those roles as less-favored.

There may be other reasons why players aren't volunteering support in Ranked even though we know they are probably down for it. There's the potential for "have to carry your team!" perceptions pushing people out of the role, or the feeling of not being able to strongly influence what's happening, etc. As a support main, I'm not in agreement with those ideas, but I definitely recognize they're out there

Regardless, the dungeon-finder approach relies upon the idea of forcing a single ranked-style meta. And even though a ton of players do play the bruiser-top, mage-mid, carry/support bottom, jungle layout, there's successful strategies that rely on assassins mid, jungle-mages, carry/support top, etc. I think a decent amount of players wouldn't be down with a queue that only allows for one team layout.
Why does the queue system have to be so restrictive? Mid Solo, Solo, Jungle, Support, and Carry could be the options. It doesn't matter what lane you ultimately put your duo in or even what champ is expected to play in that role. This way leans towards the meta but it doesn't specifically state that support and carry will be bottom or that an AP has to be mid. It's just letting people state their desired roles.

You could also let people queue from 1 to 5 roles at once in a ranking system that indicates their desire to play each role. So that way people who will do anything but "role XXX" (ie support) can queue easily without fear of getting stuck into a role they are bad at or just don't want to play.

I'm against the idea of showing what champions people play most or anything like that. Sometimes I just like to try out champions that I've been working to improve on and I don't have the stats to back my play up yet.


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elbicnivnimai

Senior Member

03-13-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyte View Post
You raise a few interesting points. What's more important to players? Their role (Tank! Support!), their champion (Ashe! Xerath!), or their position (Top! Mid!)?

Regarding showing the top 5 champions stat to players in Champ Select, we're very intentional and deliberate when deciding what stats to show players. If we showed players the top 5 champions, doesn't it create a perception that if the players are not playing one of their most experienced champions that the team is at a disadvantage?
Any system that would group people based on their preferred champion or role wouldn't work until any champion someone could prefer is viable in every lane.

It all boils down to the issues of lane designation, and the fact that effective teams consist of supports don't get CS, teams need a bruiser in the jungle or in top lane. Teams need some sort of mage or utility caster in mid, and teams need an ADC with a support in bot.

All of these preconceptions existing before champion select even happening means that champion select is made more difficult by them

I remember back in S1 and before it, it was basically anything goes, and everyone had a lot more fun because often they could just play whatever they wanted.

Now that people are much more meta minded and feel that a team has to have an ADC and jungler and support means that only top and mid have close to the same versatility.

And this is a problem, because we won't ever have a good system that can be like: Joe has played 2000 hours of mid lane and Bob has only played 100. Joe should be mid.


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Ektomorf

Senior Member

03-13-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyte View Post
1) Vote Kick | Players want the ability to vote kick toxic players from Champ Select.
2) WoW Dungeon Finder | Players want the ability to queue up for a particular role like “Healer” and “DPS” and placed into a Champ Select with a team
3) Prisoner’s Island | Players want matchmaking to pair toxic players with toxic players, and positive players with positive players.
1. Would be great, if only in ranked. Needs 3/5. That way toxic duos can't function. Only in ranked so toxic premades can't function.

2. Would never work properly. I used to play WoW, DPS characters, despite needing 3(for a 5 man) could wait anywhere up to an hour+, simply waiting for a tank or a healer. Same would go for supports I would imagine. yes it encourages more supports, but if they are absolutely terrible and picking it just so they can play, whats the point?
Also what is stopping a troll from picking jungle then locking in annie and going mid?

3. I was originally all for this idea, but you have different levels of toxic.
The player that says GG NOOBS twice every game(yes it does get punished, read the tribunal forums) is not the same as the guy who goes 0-25-0 in the first 20 minutes.


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Bonekinght

Member

03-13-2013

as for the dungeon finder idea what about one that is just a bit more detailed about the role or specifies the role choice better. kind of like thinking as a jungler more of a support role or support buffer/healer so on and so on.


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tolore

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Senior Member

03-13-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by davin View Post
There may be other reasons why players aren't volunteering support in Ranked even though we know they are probably down for it. There's the potential for "have to carry your team!" perceptions pushing people out of the role, or the feeling of not being able to strongly influence what's happening, etc. As a support main, I'm not in agreement with those ideas, but I definitely recognize they're out there

For me it's less about what I want to play, if I had my way I'd go top 1 v 1 with a tanky champ every single game, and that'd be awesome. It's also less about what gives our team the best chance to win/being able to carry the game(though that's important). It's all about whether I can have fun with a match or not. I will probably have some sort of fun even if we lose as top, mid or adc carry. Jungle I might have fun, if I'm in the right modd or it goes well. Support I will not have fun even if we do well.

So it's less about "how can I have the most fun in ranked" or "how can I carry in ranked" and more about "how can I ranked without NOT having fun"


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Kyryck

Senior Member

03-13-2013

Quote:
Quote:
Consider a player that’s having a bad day at work and nothing seems to be going right. This player goes home, and loads up some League of Legends thinking, “I really just want to be a Mage today—maybe Annie.” They enter a lobby, and second pick calls “Annie.” The first pick says, “fk, I’m mid, I want Twisted Fate. I’m first pick.” The lobby crumbles in front of the player and he doesn’t even want to throw his suggestion into the mix—it’s a lost battle. The team enters the game, and the player plays poorly… and his teammates yell at him. “You suck at Support, why didn’t you choose a Tank.” The player snaps. He rages back.
But you know what?

This player's behavior isn’t toxic. He’s just like any one of us--we all have our bad days.
Actually, I would disagree. He's indeed being toxic for this game. Whether or not he is habitually toxic would be the more relevant question. Perhaps that's what you meant to imply when you said his behavior isn't toxic? I fully realize that many of us have had toxic games but we are not 'toxic players' because it's not a habitual thing. Is that what you meant to say there?


Quote:
The player behavior team has been running research on Champ Select and we agree that Champ Select is currently not a great environment and does not set teams up for success. We’ve all experienced Champ Selects that have erupted in arguments and had that sinking feeling that the game is lost before it even started. In saying this, there are plenty of Champ Select lobbies that are awesome and being positive and cooperative in every lobby does help; however, being positive by itself will not solve the problems in Champ Select and we don’t expect it to.
Gotta say that it's nice to receive at least some acknowledgement that there are people at Riot that understand that the current mess in the select screen is an unconscionable mess right now. I'm a little disheartened that it took this long, with so many people posting and refuting so many Rioters claiming that simply being positive and happy and "compromising" (meaning never actually playing a desired role because you're avoiding conflict by just giving the people calling whatever they want for fear of having a troll game or argument with them. It was rather like watching people who live with an alcoholic justify why they are constantly treading lightly around them and then claiming that they're compromising because it's the way to achieve peace....until the next time the person is drunk anyway, at which point they simply blame themselves for not compromising enough) would somehow make the issues people are noticing magically vanish into the ether most of the time. Took a LOOOOOONG time to get this out of you, but it's nice that finally something is being looked at in terms of change in champion select.

Quote:
1) Real-Life Context | This scenario really illustrates how context outside the game can influence behavior inside the game. Traditionally, game studios don’t design or solve for context. Or can they?
Nice to try building this in as a goal. I have no clue if it's possible or not. I wouldn't expect so, since there are so many variables to consider if you're honestly trying to build a system that takes outside, real-world issues into account. I would argue that it's everybody's responsibility to ensure that their behavior matches with what is expected, not yours to try designing something that does that for them.

Quote:
2) In-Game Context | This scenario illustrates the conflict between Pick Order and Call Order. When there are literally no guidelines, at best, half of the players believe in Pick Order and half believe in Call Order—we’ve created a situation where conflicts are expected rather than rare.
Very nearly precisely what people have been saying. You want to know how to fix this? All Riot has to do in the interim is release a statement saying that pick order trumps call order. End of issue. If everybody knows this (put a 'tip' before champion select or something so that everybody has to read it) then arguments about whether or not you called a role are moot. You're not discouraging talking or positive communication. What you're doing is providing a framework for people to build off of with their communication. If somebody says, "Hey guys, I'm last pick but I'm honestly terrible at support and if I am forced to play it we'll likely suffer compared to somebody else more familiar with the role" there's nothing stopping them from doing so or stopping the team from responding in equal measures.

However, what is stopped is that same person then frantically 'calling out' a role in the 0.00005 seconds after loading in to champion select. Entire issue has now gone away.

Quote:
3) Time Pressure | From psychology, we know that time pressure sometimes twists context in hostile ways. Players in Champ Select are effectively trying to negotiate with each other over individual goals (i.e, what role I want to play this game) that overlap with team goals (i.e, given this set of teammates, what’s the best strategy for us to win?). Studies suggest that throwing time pressure in there is like adding fuel to the fire—the end result is more disagreements and lower quality of negotiations.
You're obviously not going to take away the timer or make it longer. Games are already frustrating enough to start without adding more time. But again, this issue is largely solved if you simply say that pick order is how things are done by default. No more pressure in "negotiations" because there's no uncertainty as to who is 'right' if an issue comes up. Yeah, you're still going to have trolls claiming that they're not going to do a specific role, but that's fairly easily solved if you simply have pre-game chat loaded into the Tribunal or include the kick option you referred to.

Quote:
1) Vote Kick | Players want the ability to vote kick toxic players from Champ Select.
This could work if you made sure that there was no penalty involved in a few kicks. Perhaps all four people have to agree to kick? You'd be left with the issue of duo-queues and others not kicking friends, but at least you'd solve the issue in solo-queue. Still, I could see this as being abused if somebody picked something unusual (like a strange jungler or support or something) and the others all shrieked about it "not being the meta" or something like that. This option would need a whole lot of rules attached to it, so I'm not sure it's something you'd like to try. Still, with enough guidance perhaps it is a feasible solution.

Quote:
2) WoW Dungeon Finder | Players want the ability to queue up for a particular role like “Healer” and “DPS” and placed into a Champ Select with a team
This could work. Your only issue here then would be that you would be kind of enforcing a meta on people. One AD, one AP, one support, one bruiser, one jungler. If people want to try queuing up as something different or trying a different team composition, there has to be a way to do that. I have no clue what that method would be, but luckily I don't work at Riot so I'm not being paid to figure it out. Good luck!

Quote:
3) Prisoner’s Island | Players want matchmaking to pair toxic players with toxic players, and positive players with positive players.
This could absolutely work. You'll be left with the issue of how to reform negative people though. Because if somebody is always grouped with other negative people, they're more likely to be negative themselves. This is a tough issue to solve, because you're essentially leaving no road (or a very tough road) for negative people who honestly want to be positive now.

I still think that, at least for the short-term, you'd be better off just saying that pick order is the default rule and going from there to advise communication within that framework.

Every game needs rules and even games with extensive rules get argued over all the time. At least you guys have realized now that some sort of reform of this currently broken system is needed. It'll be interesting to see what you manage to come up with.