Let's talk about Champ Select

First Riot Post
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Sojs

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Senior Member

03-13-2013

my only problem with champ select is losing lp on dodges


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Trylobyte

Senior Member

03-13-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyte View Post
1) Vote Kick | Players want the ability to vote kick toxic players from Champ Select.
2) WoW Dungeon Finder | Players want the ability to queue up for a particular role like “Healer” and “DPS” and placed into a Champ Select with a team
3) Prisoner’s Island | Players want matchmaking to pair toxic players with toxic players, and positive players with positive players.

What are some pros and cons to these ideas? Would they work for League?
I can offer you my pessimistic opinion on these, at least, and outline a whole bunch of cons.

1) You think people complain about queue times now... I'd also be wary of applying this simply because it provides a means of meta enforcement, since a player who wants to try something new will get vote-kicked almost as quickly as a player venting racial slurs. One possible way to balance for this would be to log the chat and forward vote-kick cases to the Tribunal; people who abuse the kick privilege too much (such as kicking someone solely for wanting to go against the meta, or people kicking someone for picking a champ with a low win percentage) lose it for a time. This is probably the most viable 'quick fix' solution, at the expense of lengthened queue times as people kick someone from every other match they get queued for.

2) This is definite meta enforcement, and that's a very dangerous territory to get into. Presumably, this means every team you run will have a Top, Mid, Jungle, Support, ADC. On its own merits this would be fine, if restrictive to meta development, but at its worst it makes trolling easier since there's nothing stopping someone from joining queue as support, picking Darius, and saying 'Oh, he can support, he has Apprehend' before going on a KS rampage, or someone queueing up for ADC then picking Karma. It'll also lengthen queue times if there's a shortage of junglers or supports , two traditionally unpopular roles, since they tend to be blame magnets. You *could* make it so that champ selection is limited based on the role you signed up for, but depending on the free champs that week, it's also entirely possible someone will queue for a role that they can't actually play.

3) This can lead to a situation where a player deemed 'toxic' once can never get out of that situation since they're queued with other 'toxic' players and have no escape from it. How do you determine toxicity, anyway? Honor? That just makes honor-farming all the more viable? Number of reports? Hope that four-man premade in Normals don't all report you for not taking the role none of them wanted. Number of bans? That might be possible.


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Captain Meatball

Senior Member

03-13-2013

Dungeon Finder is the best idea. The other two can and will be abused.

Yes, you are committing to the meta, but there is no way around it.

In my experience, 99% of games are pretty much meta style games.

Yes, queues will be longer for more desirable positions, but that's the price you pay for wanting those spots.


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davin

Senior User Researcher

03-13-2013
8 of 55 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by EcchiFapfapfap View Post
WoW dungeon finder = 10min+ waiting queues.
But if you're all patient people, which, let's admit, you're not, it could work.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tolore View Post
WoW dungeon finder WOULD be the way to go if it didn't enforce the meta.
Let's talk about these two points a little. From a queue time standpoint, a standard-meta queue actually wouldn't be too lengthy. When you take into account the multiple ways of playing support (Tank/Support/Kill Lane) and the players who are fine to fill all roles, you actually have around 15 to 20% of players being down for Jungle and Support (depending region and definition of those roles). So queue time may actually be less of an issue than it'd seem based on the popular perception of those roles as less-favored.

There may be other reasons why players aren't volunteering support in Ranked even though we know they are probably down for it. There's the potential for "have to carry your team!" perceptions pushing people out of the role, or the feeling of not being able to strongly influence what's happening, etc. As a support main, I'm not in agreement with those ideas, but I definitely recognize they're out there

Regardless, the dungeon-finder approach relies upon the idea of forcing a single ranked-style meta. And even though a ton of players do play the bruiser-top, mage-mid, carry/support bottom, jungle layout, there's successful strategies that rely on assassins mid, jungle-mages, carry/support top, etc. I think a decent amount of players wouldn't be down with a queue that only allows for one team layout.


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YUNOWARDS

Senior Member

03-13-2013

Here are the things I think we need

1. A vote kick as suggested. Obviously some limits need to be in place such as certain amount of votes per day to force people to really think about if the person theyre about to kick really is a troll or toxic or not.

2.More time before bans. There simply needs to be more time between to communicate with your team to make effective strategies as well as time to decide on what bans to focus on.

3.Some way to show what role people are looking to play as well as what champions they play and are looking to play. There have been a lot of suggestions on this and I have to agree that more information on what the other players are looking to do, willing to do, and capable of doing would help with quite a few disputes.

3a. More information on other players in general, such as champions owned.

4.One suggestion I saw was to color code the chat so people can follow it more easily. Also, making chat easier to read in general (showing more of the actual chat, more space between names)

What we absolutely don't need is a WoW dungeon finder. If more information is displayed at the start of champion select with more time for discussion I have a feeling you'll see similar results with less trolling.


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Valcrist Victari

Member

03-13-2013

If the Problem with WoW Dungeon Finder is that in the League the roles are not that well defined (Which IMO they are perfectly defined currently).

Instead of entering the queue as a certain role. It would be better to enter in the queue selecting by the Lane/Jungle you wanna play with.


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RyuuMasken

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Senior Member

03-13-2013

I've actually put some thought into the WoW Dungeon Finder idea. I think the idea would be best utilized as an optional thing. I can agree with the sentiment in the example in your first post; some days I log on and I just really want to play a mage. Or I want to play a bruiser. Or a jungler. An optional system where before I queue, I can check the role I most prefer would be great.

In my head it works like this: you can check one or multiple roles in your profile, or perhaps next to the queue button. The matchmaking system would then try to match you with other players based on your selections and their selections, and try to match you in what the matchmaker perceives as a balanced team. It's important that the matchmaker's perception can be easily changed, so meta enforcement isn't as huge an issue(though it's one of the bigger problems with this). To alleviate queue times, the matchmaker could gradually broaden its scope as time passes.

I do see some issues with balancing queue times vs balancing team roles. It's a person to person thing, but I'm definitely okay with waiting a few extra minutes so I don't feel like I have to instapick the champion I'd like to play to even get a chance at playing them. There might also be some issues with people selecting the same role. I feel like icons on their selection(ie on the upper right of a the champion portrait area, there could be a mage badge for someone who wants to play a mage) would help promote teamwork, but people are already used to "having" to instalock and will likely just default to that. IMO a dungeon finder system would likely need some additional padding to promote teamwork, though the core idea can solve a lot of problems.


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Cyniqal

Senior Member

03-13-2013

Using the dungeon finder as an example, instead of straight up queuing up as a "Mid/Top/ADC/Support/Jungle" have the queue something like this
-Prefer AP carry
-Prefer AD carry
-Prefer Jungler
-Prefer Support
-Prefer Bruiser
-No preference

As a side note to this, you should have to select more than one role, mainly to make the queue times reasonable and to make it so people are still learning other jobs.

Also I'm not sure how hard it would be to set certain limitations on the system to say not allow 3 people who prefer top lane into the queue. Rather than using the queue choices to restrict the game to a certain meta, you can use them to ensure that you'll have someone in game who prefers playing support, yet also prefers mid. It will allow people to still play roles they are comfortable with.


Another more negative approach would be either to

A) Limit champion selection based on what role they chose
B) Cut the LP/IP gain from winning the game with a role you did not queue into.

Using option B can created a rather toxic chat if people are queuing up as support (Just guessing it's the least played) in order to get a faster queue, but this can once again be lightened up by a 3/5 vote kick option.

Using the vote kick option example, I'm not going to go into it too much, but people seem to think it will be used to dodge queues, troll, etc. Why not just enforce a timer for the people who initiated the kick? Say a 5 min queue timer? It's not game breaking, but it's for sure long enough to make people think twice about vote kicking just because they don't agree with someone's champion.


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chaser676

Senior Member

03-13-2013

Would simply saying "pick order is the way to go" THAT devastating to lobbies? I don't understand why Reds are so against making a stance


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Noraver

Senior Member

03-13-2013

Going to make another suggestion here..

Lyte, would it be possible to make a system where if someone dodges, they must fill out a short form saying why? This system could record the champion-select chat, take a screen-shot, etc. to support the dodger, and pinpoint the troll.

This would show what the troll said, why he did it, etc. This would make people feel much safer about champion select, and the tribunal could help solve the cases as well.