So, about that Karma leak...

First Riot Post
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ItemsGuy

Senior Member

03-11-2013

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Originally Posted by Dark Blade Yago View Post
Or perhaps people get the sense of arrogance because you have the gall to misquote them
Cite examples.

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ignore an entire lengthy response because of a short justified criticism of you deciding to rudely and unprofessionally advertise your work on an unrelated thread
If somebody makes claims and doesn't back them up, I tend to ignore them. Everyone has opinions, and I don't have time to address all of them. You made claims, and you didn't back them up, so I cannot accept them as valid. Sorry, but that's kind of how arguments work. (Take my work for example--I'm not just saying RIOT YOUR CHAMPIONS AREN'T AS UP TO YOUR STANDARDS AS THEY COULD BE, I'm taking their standards, laying them out, and giving examples of how they could be met)

Also, I advertised a Karma rework in a thread regarding a rework of Karma, to illustrate a possible solution to her current problem (ie. not fitting Riot's criteria as well as she could). RiotAmes doesn't seem to think that such a response is inappropriate, as he mentioned that I should link my blogs, or at least mention that they exist.

Keep in mind, that this is also work that interested Rioters enough to justify a week-long sticky and 20+ posts from Morello. Doesn't seem to be without merit.

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and because you frequently use wording that has a connotation placing you as a superior designer than those at Riot, who possess the world's most played computer game.
I have never said that I am a better designer than the dudes at Riot (for example, I don't know how to implement any of my designs yet because I've never worked with anything beyond documentation), but I can take every redesign I've done, line it up with their criteria for successful champion design, and illustrate how it is an improvement in multiple areas compared to that champion's current iteration. My redesigns are, by Riot's definition, more successful than their current iterations. Take it from Morello:

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Originally Posted by Morello View Post
It's a good example because I think brand is good, but suffers from a philosophy of being too "safe" gameplay wise. In your example, you take the concept further, which is more our philosophy today.

That might be the underlying conversation we're having. Not following through on our swing to deliver a more full experience is the critique I see as the tone of each point, and on that we'd agree. I also feel that's why you're pitching the exercise as "LoL 2" because the fresh start avoids the muddiness of current expectations.

The odd thing is, I was a designer for awhile before working at Riot, and I've learned more about mechanics each year here than I had in my entire career previously. Not only would I like that to continue (and with the relaunch team/live team, let us retroactively apply that knowledge), I'd like to apply that to all our future endeavors.

To, me, the examples I use are "the bar," and as a company I think we understand the issues that prevent us from reaching that as consistently as I'd like. Fixing things like this isn't easy, but it's far from impossible - and our game reaps the benefits when we do.
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Furthermore, rather than inquire as to why one feels that your designs have faults when someone asserts they do, you would rather write them off (and in my case misquote me and ignore the rest of the response) because they don't immediately explain themselves. Perhaps they don't want to focus on criticizing your pretentious often faulted redesigns because, like in this thread, it isn't the task at hand or on topic? Especially not when you're apt to ignore responses. I have a feeling you'll do it here as well.
If you want to critique my designs, take it here.

If you only wish to state that my designs are flawed but not make any effort to justify this claim, then don't expect me to make any effort to refute your claims. I've dealt with a handful of people like you in the past--people that think they're right because they're capable of forming opinions, and tout said opinions as facts (or hell, even valid critique) without so much as trying to support themselves.

If you try to punch me in the chest but refuse to follow through, don't expect me to fly backwards for you. ; P


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KyliaL

Member

03-11-2013

Its great to see her going in a new direction. I just feel a lot of karma fans are going to miss the inner calm and peace of the old karma. Like another poster said, Karma has this feeling of calm and she almost seems powerless waving her fan. (this is something i liked about her, it made her seem like not a threat.) This is what alot of people found interesting about her, that she holds her real power back only when she needs to and the old karma represents this. Anyways, the matronly duchess will be missed and I only hope we can get someone else to fill the old karma role. A beautiful maiden with fans that is peaceful but also has a secret power lying inside her that few only see........she was a must buy with her skins from day one for me. Also Karma fans are just like Karma, they are peaceful until you mess with them. Then they will voice their opinions all day. Karma, your intelligence, inner peace, beauty and political views will be missed. I would have her on my battlefield anyday.


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Ansaa

Member

03-11-2013

RiotAmes: I'm glad you've returned to the thread, and GOOD FOR YOU for reading 250 pages of posts.

My question is slightly about her kit/playstyle... Karma was considered a support meant for bruisers, not ranged ADCs. In her remake, will she be be able to function like a normal support?

(I already know she can function as an AP mid in her remake, thanks for that!!)


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PapstJL4U

Senior Member

03-11-2013

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Originally Posted by WhiteArchon View Post
tons of players are buying karma right now only cause ur giving a skin, u should give the skin to the old karma players

Envy is not the Karma way :/


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BestBilbo

Senior Member

03-11-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by KyliaL View Post
Its great to see her going in a new direction. I just feel a lot of karma fans are going to miss the inner calm and peace of the old karma. Like another poster said, Karma has this feeling of calm and she almost seems powerless waving her fan. (this is something i liked about her, it made her seem like not a threat.) This is what alot of people found interesting about her, that she holds her real power back only when she needs to and the old karma represents this. Anyways, the matronly duchess will be missed and I only hope we can get someone else to fill the old karma role. A beautiful maiden with fans that is peaceful but also has a secret power lying inside her that few only see........she was a must buy with her skins from day one for me. Also Karma fans are just like Karma, they are peaceful until you mess with them. Then they will voice their opinions all day. Karma, your intelligence, inner peace, beauty and political views will be missed. I would have her on my battlefield anyday.
That was well-written and well constructed, I like your opinion, I'd just disagree and I think Riot is with me on this one.

As a matter of fact, these are champions were dealing with. I could see the Karma you are describing as a cool character in a sidestory within League of Legends, but characters that make it to the Field of Justice have always meant to be able to wreck balls, meaning that the fans didn't really have any place over there.

Look, I like the idea and I like your opinion, in fact I have always loved those type of characters that fight in an elegant, peaceful way, intellectuals that rather not fight than fight but somehow still have to do so because they are forced to fight, now that's an incredibly and cool personality for a character, which I think is still an archetype or personality a future champion could be all about, but fans as weapons wouldn't be the right execution for the champion, for readability's sake.


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Calling Clouds

Senior Member

03-11-2013

Maybe we just have to wait until we hear the new voice-over. She may still be very similar to the old Karma that so many people are already saying goodbye to.


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BestBilbo

Senior Member

03-11-2013

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Originally Posted by HexedCat View Post
Maybe we just have to wait until we hear the new voice-over. She may still be very similar to the old Karma that so many people are already saying goodbye to.
It's logical for them to do so, please note that I think the people you refer to are wrong, I just like to think it's a natural reaction of them to already be saying goodbye to 'the old Karma'.

She's not the same - fact.

She could potentially be a more cohesive and unified character in terms of actually being a champion that has a central theme that is readable and provides plenty of counterplay as that is what makes a design dynamic and engaging.

Karma now can really be Karma with the removal of her fans as they were watering down the experience of the ultimate 'Spiritualist' champion.


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BestBilbo

Senior Member

03-11-2013

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Originally Posted by HarryOrunitia View Post
I don't think you understand my question.
I pretty much answered that already, put let me put it more obvious.

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Why isn't the traditional skin her default look? I wasn't asking the thought process behind dropping the full body dress. Especially when even in the traditional skin it isn't a full body dress anymore. But at least it has the same color scheme, it is still kind of recognizable. And hey, it's beautiful. Everybody seems to agree on that.
Because it's less of what her new theme is, which is 'spiritualist', please note that with default skins Riot tries to capture the very nature of the champion, all of the additional skins are pretty much a new flavor or color added to the champion as a skin.

Her new default fits her new theme and character better, hence the traditional skin was all about to honor and thank the people for liking current Karma and the skin stands out sort of as a tribute to the well known 'Karma, who?' meme - somehow, with this skin she won't be forgotten.

There's your answer right there, the traditional skin is an addition and purely made for the fans of 'old karma', because Riot dediced to be awesome.

This new default skin mashes with her new theme better, the traditional skin wasn't fit to serve as a default.

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If a player stopped playing like one year ago, and decided to come back to this game say, next year, if he saw Karma's traditional skin as the default look he would think "oh, I think I remember who she is! She got a visual rework I guess". The reaction to the new default look would probably be more like "I don't remember this champion being in the game when I stopped playing" instead.
Not sure what to say here - are you suggesting it's better to cancel this entire launch because some people might need to take a bit of time to recoqnize Karma has been reworked?

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How is that not an issue? It's understandable that Riot wants to relaunch and remake a few champions but keeping at least a few very basic recognizable traits (such as the color scheme) should be an obvious rule.
It's an issue that you are asking for keeping things that make her design worse. Riot did a full rework so they've done a full rework with no constraints, nothing holding them back to make Karma as much as Karma as they've always wanted to make her, you should be glad they've come out with this traditional skin to honor and thank people like me and you.


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Afrocalypse

Senior Member

03-11-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by BestBilbo View Post
It's logical for them to do so, please note that I think the people you refer to are wrong, I just like to think it's a natural reaction of them to already be saying goodbye to 'the old Karma'.

She's not the same - fact.

She could potentially be a more cohesive and unified character in terms of actually being a champion that has a central theme that is readable and provides plenty of counterplay as that is what makes a design dynamic and engaging.

Karma now can really be Karma with the removal of her fans as they were watering down the experience of the ultimate 'Spiritualist' champion.
As one of those people that decided that the current Karma will become something only to be remembered, I may say I understand what you are saying, but also how I feel it is:
The new Karma is more boring. That statement is totally subjective, I know. You say her fans were watering down the experience of the champion, I say the new concept is watered down.
I am not gonna go into full length explaining this, but I just wanted to show your reasoning can go both ways.


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Calling Clouds

Senior Member

03-11-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by BestBilbo View Post
It's logical for them to do so, please note that I think the people you refer to are wrong, I just like to think it's a natural reaction of them to already be saying goodbye to 'the old Karma'.

She's not the same - fact.

She could potentially be a more cohesive and unified character in terms of actually being a champion that has a central theme that is readable and provides plenty of counterplay as that is what makes a design dynamic and engaging.

Karma now can really be Karma with the removal of her fans as they were watering down the experience of the ultimate 'Spiritualist' champion.
I agree that I never really got the Spiritual vibe with her to begin with. She was like a diplomat with fans who somehow did magic stuff, and only one of her abilities actually had anything to do with the fans.

While they did look nice aesthetically to some degree, their removal, in my opinion, ultimately opened more room design wise. Her spirituality is much more expressed now, and definitely takes on a more Eastern feel (at least as far as I can tell)