So, about that Karma leak...

First Riot Post
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Healurownbum

Senior Member

03-11-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by VexTheHex View Post
And it's always been that people are much more likely to come to the forums and threads to voice their anger than their satisfaction.

Yea its true i dont voice what im happy with and maybe i should. Just atm im rather bleak abt it all. Something i love is being taken away and doesnt seem i get to keep anything that was important of that thing.

But fine ill try and voice what i am happy abt. I am happy with the fact they are trying. Im happy they made a skin to try and keep us happy. Im happy they seem to have put so much time and effort in to it. And im happy they are talking to us trying to keep our hopes up.

And god i love the new pingsystem! More laziness from me!

And on a other note i learned its better to voice your anger/dissapointment then let it eat at you...


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Splinterheart

Senior Member

03-11-2013

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Originally Posted by VexTheHex View Post
I have been following this thread some, and it's not a huge amount of people that are coming in upset in this thread. I think it's a group of 12ish posters (though a good chunk of the posts are by about 4-6 people) who are keeping the train moving. I saw a couple of threads last night/today about how Karma's rework has destroyed her, and they were downvoted with people disagreeing with the OP's complaints right off the bat.

And it's always been that people are much more likely to come to the forums and threads to voice their anger than their satisfaction.

Edit- And I also have noticed the tendency for even someone saying something along the line of "Omg, I'm excited!" and "She looks beautiful, this was an awesome change!" to get a couple downvotes. This thread is mostly watched by the small group that dislike the Karma changes. Those who are happy, post and leave.
Ah right, didn't notice that it's the same people over and over. Glad people do actually like rework, because I feel it's fantastic (and I play Karma too). I can truly agree on people voicing their dislikes over the things that they do like.

So Riot:
You've made tons of awesome things this year and last and I love them all. Don't let people get you down, you're awesome. ^^


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SSLRranma

Senior Member

03-11-2013

honestly, the visual change is an ascetic thing and can be fixed with a skin(Which riot did). I will miss the fans though. Dont know if i like the dragon things.

But its all going to come down to the mechanic changes.


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Terra Enigma

Senior Member

03-11-2013

RiotAmes can you talk about Guinsoo?


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Healurownbum

Senior Member

03-11-2013

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Originally Posted by Terra Enigma View Post
RiotAmes can you talk about Guinsoo?
I wouldnt mind hearing what happend to him as well please?


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BadgerDrool

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Senior Member

03-11-2013

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Originally Posted by Rauron View Post
I love how Riot continues to outright IGNORE the dress, focusing purely on the fan discussion. But, hey, it's whatever, right? Promising to keep her as classy as she was before doesn't really mean anything; just throw out whatever rework and let the players deal with it.
Admittedly so have I.

I think her Tradional Skin represents exactly what her outfit should look like. It's not really a dress but it gets pretty close. It really looks like Karma had her dress tailored and customized for battle.

Mind I don't mean black and white color scheme. I mean arrangement and straps. The actual color scheme can change but I think it looks pretty good in black and white.

I also think the dress is more of a losing battle. I doubt we can get a change back to her wearing a dress.

If I could hazard a guess..based on what I'm reading dresses are hard with their tech limitations. I'm going to guess that they can't add separate feet without it being a giant hassle. So they have to generally do dresses like Soraka or old Karma where there are no feet. Feet are actually a huge part of what makes a dress look right as it allows you to have the hem hang back and have feet pop out when appropriate. Without it you get some weirdness.

When I did my big "current karma visual critique" I learned a bit about elegant movement and dresses. It's a pretty interesting topic. Runway models are a great source for that kind of movement.


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ItemsGuy

Senior Member

03-11-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by BooleanCube View Post
I've been reading your reworks, and I really like what I'm seeing. I can see that your a person who is shaping himself up to be a Designer, one who understands theories and concepts and puts them together in meaningful and functional ways. You've expressed interest in working at Riot, and out of all of the people on the Forum, your the only one who seems to be preparing for it as if it is possible, within your grasp, simply waiting to be achieved.

Your work also shows a distinct 'first draft' feel though; you expressed the direction and goal you wanted, then made a kit, but it isn't done. Even in your hypothetical "Lol 2.0" scenario, it just wouldn't fly. It's inherently incomplete, obviously lacking the "bounced of the wall" factor of having an entire design team to work with, to point out your flaws, to round out the factors you'd express in a team.
As long as you recognize this, you could stand alongside people like Ames and FeralPony, Statikk n' Xypherous. If you apply to Riot with the mindset that your iconically BEAUTIFUL-but-TERRIBLE Fiddlesticks rework, or Heimerdinger-that-identifies-the-problem-but-utterly-fails-to-actually-solve-the-problem is the answer instead of the methodology that paves the way towards the answer, then you will never be accepted into their ranks.

Keep up your good work, keep polishing your principles, honing your skills, and otherwise shaping yourself into the critical-thinker and problem-solver that iterates. There is no good writing but re-writing, and there is no good design but re-designing. Even that which is creative was a re-creation of inspiration, and that inspiration itself not independent of others.

You are ItemsGuy now, but to become Riot, you must shed your ego, hone your mind, and evolve into a greater analytical force that knows no bias but perfection.
Oh, there's no doubt that all of my redesigns can be improved! I don't work with the mindset that they are the BEST solutions, but I do compare them to their original iterations and can point out where and how and why they excel at fulfilling Riot's criteria, where their original iterations have failed. I think the sense of "arrogance" people are getting from me comes from the matter-of-fact way I approach and state things--which, in turn, comes from a very defined and meticulous method of problem solving. I identify problems ("problems" being a contrast between iteration and criteria, such as an inherent lack of counterplay or a lack of thematic coherency), I state why those problems must be solved, I solve them (in theory), I step back, and I try to find any way in which the problem must be solved. No readable counterplay? Back to the drawing board. Anti-patterns? Back to the drawing board. Inherently broken or counterintuitive mechanics? Back to the drawing board.

Also, one of the things I strive to obtain is a group of experienced peers to tear my work to shreds and then take every shred and explain it to me, which is why I have set aside all of my other game design plans and am fighting for an internship at Riot! There are certainly champions that gave me a lot of trouble that I'm still dissatisfied with (hello, Fiddlesticks!)--in fact, I'd say that this makes up about half of the redesigns. I want to maintain all the content I can, but sadly, I don't have all the answers! I don't even have the majority, I only know which direction to go to look for them.

Anyway, I'm sorry if I come off as arrogant at times--I tend to not take critique into account when the critic only claims that problems exist (as dark blade yago said earlier, ITEMSGUY YOUR DESIGNS ARE BAD!!!) but doesn't point out said problems and point out why they are problems. It might also come from the stash of Rioter posts that back up just about every claim and decision I make, so that might butter my bread a bit. ; )

But on that note, what are your critiques on Heim and Fidds? I'd like to fix them right away. : )


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BadgerDrool

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Senior Member

03-11-2013

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Originally Posted by SexyShady View Post

But in this certain situation, especially with such a HUGE rework, there was no discussion beforehand.
I want to echo this. I have a single major critiscm with how Riot approached this. You guys really should have shown off some design documents to get some feedback and gauge what the reaction would be. It's silly to do more extensive PBE testing of gameplay stuff so you can iterate and make a better gameplay design...but not do it with Visual stuff when it's hard visual stuff.

Quote:
If this were a lesser game, I'd stop playing and uninstall as soon as a post this, but I've been playing League for almost 2 years now and it means a lot to me. I've met a lot of good friends on LoL. I've reunited with old friends over LoL, learned how to defend myself as a woman in gaming, and even met my current boyfriend because of LoL. I may be playing less now because of this... and I will definitely rage like a ***** on her period whenever I see this new Karma in game. I think I'll start playing more Dota2.

I'm sure a good portion of the minority can agree that Riot hasn't treated us well with this and we're not happy. Yeah we'll deal cause we're good people (like the old Karma) and treat people fairly (like the old Karma) and are mostly calm in situations (like the old Karma). This post will most definitely be looked over and ignored by other players and Riot employees alike, but I feel like I just had to get some sort of closure if just for myself.

To conclude, I'm really upset, depressed, disappointed, etc. in how this extremely large rework went down. Might as well delete Karma completely and introduce a new champ. I'll be playing less League from now on and looking toward other greater games. Thanks for the experience Riot, and thanks for ****ing it up.
I'm sorry to hear the rest of this though. I hope you keep enjoying LoL. Riot's doing some good things for female characters as well. Despite being male, I find myself in a similar emotional state. I know I'll be irritated seeing new Karma in games.

Fortunately, I am also a huge Trundle fan and he's much more likely to come out the other side as something I love. That could really take some of the personal sting out for me.

I'm unsure if you'll see this. I wonder if you found a couple of Morello's comments as biting as I did. I doubt he meant it that way but a couple of those posts came off really badly to me.


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BadgerDrool

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Senior Member

03-11-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotAmes View Post
You've had some pretty solid posts with good insight. You should link your two blogs (or make it more obvious that they are). As an aside, walls of text can be hard to approach and, speaking from experience, don't often enable good debate. Food for thought.

Ahh the old wall of text problem. I know thee well.

Counter Point: We care enough to speak at length and with an attempt at fairness. Would you rather we go "it sucks!" and leave it at two words?

It's hard enough to express myself accurately. To also be succinct? Alas, I lack the skill.


Quote:
Originally Posted by HarryOrunitia View Post
EDIT: Oh, especially considering that the community (and I admit, me included) drools all over pretty much anything designed by IronStylus. And the traditional skin was his design if I understand correctly?
Apparently the skin is IronStylus coming on a bit later and thus his take. Honestly, ignoring any bias for IronStylus's stance. I think he's objectivly put out something that's closer to a 50/50. That's pretty much the only reason I wish he was more involved earlier on with Karma's rework.

Granted then you throw in bias and I really wish he was more involved. I also appreciate where Riot is coming from on the splash conceptually but, treating a Karma splash art with the design direction of a pin up artist says all the wrong things about what the goals of new Karma is.

I really want to be nicer about all this but, I can't see reason to be.


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Krimson62

Senior Member

03-11-2013

Just as something to tribute to her old self... don't you think it would be fair if her /j or /t would have her pull the fans out of her pocket and talk about "fan service"?

I would laugh, don't know about everyone else