So, about that Karma leak...

First Riot Post
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HarryOrunitia

Senior Member

03-10-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by BadgerDrool View Post
That's an easy claim to make and I feel you'll find it easy to justify as well. The fact is that Karma's fans are already a minority. A significant portion of players are clearly looking at this as a new champion. They don't see what is missing or lost from her old design. They don't see the missing potential.
This, this, this. It's easy to say that when most of the people who upvoted this thread never even tried the old Karma, maybe becase of her reputation rather than because they didn't find her design appealing.

I had lots of friends who said stuff like "I will never buy Karma", and when asked why they wouldn't really know how to answer, or answered with something along the lines of "because she's useless". Then some of them decided to try her after seeing me play her, and they actually fell in love with her and admitted that they actually liked the gameplay and the design.


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BadgerDrool

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Senior Member

03-10-2013

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Originally Posted by RiotAmes View Post
look at Anji Moto or other video game fan-wielders for some examples )
Gaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah. No wonder you guys choose this direction.

Why you would look to other vid4eo game fan-wielders for inspiration instead of creating your own direction for a VG usage of fans is beyond me. But it's clear that this is why it's hard to see the possibility of fans as a minor element.

Pulled up a video of Moto. He's a fighting game character without a mirrored stance. He's fighting in a 2d plane so the fact his stance is "at an angle" makes all his animations able to be less same-y. Further, he's actually opening and closing the fans as he works. This is notable as Karma's old visual rarely did this while Moto is generally starting with a closed fan before hitting with an open fan. Some of his moves also just involve a closed fan.

He also doesn't really feel like he's using the fans as fans. It's similar to Dhalsim from street fighter. Dhalsim uses his fists and legs in a very cartoony way by stretching and thus isn't really using "fists or legs" but instead using "stretch-y fists or legs". Moto isn't using fans. He's using a fighter game style take on fans to stretch them into a bigger weapon.

He isn't just doing it right because he's using them as a club but because he's using the range of motion a fan allows.

Really. If you are using him as a basis for "what a fan in a video game can do" I really feel you are missing the boat here. He's a good example of one style that takes a fan to use as a physical weapon and does so by over-embellishing what a fan can do. There is nothing there that shows other styles or ways fans can be used in video games. He's a good example of his way but, his way is such a narrow method.

I can understand why Riot decided to remove the fans as a major element. You definitely have good examples of why that wasn't working and why that wasn't a good idea. Yet, it's so clear to me that Riot isn't putting forth an argument on why Fans as a minor element wasn't a better idea then their removal. So instead of spotting the middle ground approach. Riot has gone whole hog and it's to the detriment of Karma fans.

It sucks because I know Riot can do better and can put out a better product. I know that if you take the idea of fans as a minor element to the drawing board and really look at it you'll be the ones finding cool and interesting ways to make it work.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotAmes View Post

The Traditional Karma skin came a little later in the project. IronStylus wasn't her original concept artist. We had already decided that the new base was what we wanted of her. When it came time to work on skins, Relaunch team thought it'd be cool to offer the 'vintage'(as everyone is calling it) look to players, so IronStylus took a shot at it and we liked it. We debated swapping the two a few times and decided not to.
I sincerely wish he was more involved near the start.


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BadgerDrool

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Senior Member

03-10-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by HarryOrunitia View Post
This, this, this. It's easy to say that when most of the people who upvoted this thread never even tried the old Karma, maybe becase of her reputation rather than because they didn't find her design appealing.

I had lots of friends who said stuff like "I will never buy Karma", and when asked why they wouldn't really know how to answer, or answered with something along the lines of "because she's useless". Then some of them decided to try her after seeing me play her, and they actually fell in love with her and admitted that they actually liked the gameplay and the design.

That's an excellent point. Karma's lack of popularity is a very muddy problem. Is it because an older classy lady cannot be popular? Is it because of her abilities? Is it an issue of "everyone says she's bad so she's bad and I don't want her?"

Being labeled as "the worst champion in the game" sends far more meaning then it should. Especially the more balanced the game gets.

It's worth remembering that Pro's have never tried to make Karma work in a tourney setting. Given the nature of her gameplay and how much milage she gets out of skilled play. It's entirely possible that a Pro team could put on quite a performance with her. It'd take Froggen using her mid once to cause a lot of people to try her out for example.

Feedback should always be thought about in terms of where it's coming from. Karma's lack of love doesn't necessarily mean her old concepts are bad. Simply because the issue is too foggy to really make such a definitive declaration.

Look at Lulu from FFX. Even if you reduced her cup size and cut the belt panty-window I'd say she'd be a very sexy and sensual character. The way she moved was a major part of that. She was "mature" but was more "Older Sister" then anything else. Sure the boobs helped but, it's not all of the appeal. Her character was certainly distinct from Tifa of FF7.


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Severian NA

Senior Member

03-10-2013

I feel bad about this, and I would very much like to hear more about Riots side of this story. It does sound like they have something planned. This was just an emergency announcement.

But yes, hearing their personal side of the story, that is important to me. I don't think it is possible to convince me that they made the right decision, but I believe they didn't make the decision easily. If I get a bit of input from them, I will be able to stop feeling a little like Karma went away, and nobody ever cared *sniffle* Just getting that reply from Ames helped a lot.
They have lost a champion I still feel was truly special. But I realize that there are a lot of sides to this story, and I would very much like take the bad with the good. I don't want someone to try their best, make hard decisions, and have nobody even try to see their side of it, or appreciate their intentions. And selfishly, I don't think that is a good way to make them feel that caring is worthwile. That is me.

Also, I want to put this behind me. I absolutely hate that Karma is going away. I would never have let this happen. But it might very well be, that if I was (try not to laugh) placed in charge of her redesign, I would have ended up pretty much in the same place because of problems I didn't expect. Or, I might have forced her through, and the results would have been lacklustre and detrimental to the game in general. If I envision that the people who worked on this cared as much as I do, I still can't convince myself that they would be guaranteed to have gotten a better result.

Currently, I still look at the new splash, and the chinese splash, and think "are you guys blind?!" with regards to the developers. There is not even competition. So assuming Riot cared half as much as I do, it must have been really hard for them. And I know of atleast one Rioter who love Karma, and I also know that he is very knowledgeable, aaand, I know that Riot lets everybody chip in if on anything if their input is good. If he feels the same about the visuals as he does about the kit, and got as involved as I would have in his position, then I can't see how that leaves room for lack of value placed in current Karma. So, I guess I kinda suspect Riot tried as hard as I could wish, and still ended up with this tragic decision. If that is the case, I can but take my hat off to them and say "Thank you for trying to save her. Thank you for dedicating several teams, all this time, and effort for the least popular champion." If I look at the best possible interpretation, then we are suddenly on the same side, and they deserve nothing but appreciation and gratitude.

Huh. Are there fans of Karma, at the level displayed in this thread, within Riot? Did they get involved? If so, I wonder why they aren't in here. Maybe it isn't the right time. Maybe we'll get to mourn together at a later date.


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Severian NA

Senior Member

03-10-2013

*looks at all the posts since yesterday* Good grief Ames. All these different perspectives, focal points, questions. All these words! Get you while you still can! (After answering my post, ofcourse *cough*)


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HarryOrunitia

Senior Member

03-10-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by ItemsGuy View Post
I'm sorry you're upset about Riot's decisions, but you cannot reasonably say that they are unjustified. Plenty of people seem to be looking forward to her new release, so the only advice I can give you for the time being is to go with the flow and trust that I will fight tooth and nail to preserve what you loved about her previous iteration and give it a fitting home once I start working for Riot. You will get your elegant, fan-wielding diplomat someday, but she will not be Karma! If those parts of Karma were what you truly loved, then you should have no reason to not dry your tears and smile for tomorrow. That's the path towards happiness--hold my hand, I'll take you there.
Ok, again I'm only replying to the last part of your post because the rest of it is just opinions, opinions I don't agree with for the most part, and there's nothing either of us can do about that, sadly.

But here, you just said we could have an elegant fan-wielding diplomat someday... Why can't it be Karma? Why couldn't they rework Karma into whatever in your opinion is an accurate and readable representation of an elegant fan-wielding diplomat since those were actually her main and most appealing traits? Why waste the chance and the potential to rebuild a champion into what she was supposed to be? Why choose the easy, lazy way and just completely delete that champion and postpone the "elegant fan-wielding diplomat" concept for a future champion? You already had one, it was flawed, but it could've been fixed. It's THAT champion we fell in love with, and even though I would appreciate a new one that's similar to it, it still wouldn't be the same.

Not to mention that I don't even believe they're ever going to have a champion that has all those elements, especially when they feel they failed the first time. If they ever make a new fan-wielding champion, I doubt it will have the same personality, and vice-versa.


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HarryOrunitia

Senior Member

03-10-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by BadgerDrool View Post
That's an excellent point. Karma's lack of popularity is a very muddy problem. Is it because an older classy lady cannot be popular? Is it because of her abilities? Is it an issue of "everyone says she's bad so she's bad and I don't want her?"

Being labeled as "the worst champion in the game" sends far more meaning then it should. Especially the more balanced the game gets.

It's worth remembering that Pro's have never tried to make Karma work in a tourney setting. Given the nature of her gameplay and how much milage she gets out of skilled play. It's entirely possible that a Pro team could put on quite a performance with her. It'd take Froggen using her mid once to cause a lot of people to try her out for example.

Feedback should always be thought about in terms of where it's coming from. Karma's lack of love doesn't necessarily mean her old concepts are bad. Simply because the issue is too foggy to really make such a definitive declaration.

Look at Lulu from FFX. Even if you reduced her cup size and cut the belt panty-window I'd say she'd be a very sexy and sensual character. The way she moved was a major part of that. She was "mature" but was more "Older Sister" then anything else. Sure the boobs helped but, it's not all of the appeal. Her character was certainly distinct from Tifa of FF7.
Yep. I agree word for word. And I've always really seen lots of similarities between Lulu from FFX and Karma, and they're both characters I love. I'm glad you brought her up.

Her type of "sexiness" is definitely a type of sexiness LoL is lacking. Not revealing but still incredibly sensual, beautiful and mysterious. A direction I would have LOVED to see in the new Karma.


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Severian NA

Senior Member

03-10-2013

We have agreed on many central points, dear Sir's, but comparing Lulu to Karma in any way is a clash of opinions stronger than I would have thought remotely possible considering how much we agree on XD


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HarryOrunitia

Senior Member

03-10-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Severian NA View Post
We have agreed on many central points, dear Sir's, but comparing Lulu to Karma in any way is a clash of opinions stronger than I would have thought remotely possible considering how much we agree on XD
Well I don't think Lulu and Karma are like the same character or anything. They're driven by very very different things and ideals and they have mostly different personalities and appearances. But Lulu is a cold/distant looking, elegant, mature and intelligent woman who wears an INCREDIBLY impractical dress and fights with one of the most unusual weapons in the history of FF.

There is also a sense of humor about her design, the game itself makes fun of her exaggerated traits, for example the fact that she stores all the items in her cleavage.


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Severian NA

Senior Member

03-10-2013

No, wait. I wasn't paying attention again. You weren't saying they are the same type of character/personality. Just that they have similar traits, generally speaking, and... Yes, I guess I can see what you mean, somewhat.