So, about that Karma leak...

First Riot Post
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Stexe

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Adjudicator

03-10-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotAmes View Post

We didn't feel that was the case. The fans were a distraction from what she was supposed to be, then. (a note: yes, we could have spent time forcing the fans to work, but that didn't work out the first time) Instead, we looked at her Inner Flame and Mantra - this spoke of an inner strength, uncompromising in the face of adversity.
I always viewed her fans as a representation of her duality nature. Two sides to the fan and fans can be used to push air or pull air. It seemed to fit with her idea of Karma, or one action causing a reaction. Not sure what else would fit as a "weapon / focus" for her back then. However, if she is more about inner strength and less about duality (damaging cone that can heal, shield that can damage, speed boost that can slow) then it would make sense to remove it. Otherwise, I think the fan fit perfectly for her. That's really the only change that irks me a bit (well that and her weird stance where she pushes her chest needlessly forward, but that's been covered by others), although I can see why the fans were removed. Just really hope we get a cool fan user in the future then!


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MrTharne

Senior Member

03-10-2013

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Originally Posted by HarryOrunitia View Post
Yeah, but Orianna looks NOTHING like GLaDOS. And I don't know much about GLaDOS' back story, but I've always thought Orianna's was inspired by Pinocchio.

The personality and the voice are clearly references to GLaDOS but I don't think it's fair to say that's the only appeal. I've never played Portal and I absolutely love Orianna.
Well yeah, that's not all there is about Orianna (hopefully), but that gets your attention.

And the ball is the main easter egg about Portal, with her voice.


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KyliaL

Member

03-10-2013

I agree with you Stexe. Her fans made her unique. I only hope we can get a fan user in the future as well. I bought Karma and both of her skins BECAUSE she is a fan user (and I loved her kit ) and that is what I like and what drew me to her. I play this game for fun, not for competitive play. Karma and her fans are fun to me and I will miss them. They made her so regal yet so humble. So innocent yet so dangerous. This is what Karmas fans symbolized to me.


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ItemsGuy

Senior Member

03-10-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by HarryOrunitia View Post
I'm afraid we'll just have to agree to disagree then, because I just don't think there is no place in a moba game for complexity, realistic character development and unusual character types.
You bring up the competitive part, but in the competitive side of the game, all that counts is the champion's gameplay, and that is not what we're talking about. I'm sure if Karma had a kit that made her a must pick or ban, she would be a lot more popular and she would be played in tournaments, events and such.
"Is this champion viable" is a very narrow view of what it means to design for a competitive game. You must also take into account that a lot of information must be conveyed in very minute periods of time, so you need to keep things concise. Designing a champion for LoL is writing a haiku. Turning each champion into a short story or full-blown epic leaves less room on the page for other subjects--since the pages in this book are as limited as the memorized information that can be readily retrieved in a split second by the average player, as a response to visual (and sometimes auditory) stimuli. If League's roster had only 20 or so champions, there'd be room for that sort of complexity. If League, were, say, a turn-based competitive game that you could have all the time in the world to prepare for (Pokemon, with all of the variations and possible movesets), there'd be room for that sort of complexity.

League of Legends is, however, a fast-pased competitive game with an ever-growing, ever-shifting playerbase, so conciseness beats unnecessary complexity every time. WoW can get away with having 3 entirely different trees for every class because they only have, like, 8 of them, and each one ends up falling into one of three roles anyway. A champion is limited to 5-9 abilities, and must speak as strongly with those abilities as they can--any non-sequiturs only muddle the message, and weaken the design as a result.

Again, this is where a distinction must be made between "what I like in a video game" and "what is best for League." I like systems in which you can highly customize the way you play and min-max certain aspects of your weapons (hello Bastion!), but would such a system be a good addition to, say, an inherently simpler game like Kirby? No--it fights against what the game is all about. Likewise, I'm a huge fan of the whole parkour system in inFamous, but does that mean this would be a good thing to incorporate into, say, a rhythm game?

What you like seems to be more suited towards RPGs--not ARTSs/MOBAs. To speak as a designer, you must know the game that is being designed for. This tends to be where I rub shoulders with people most of the time--thinking as a designer and thinking as a player can be very different things, because as a designer, there are many different things that must be taken into account, whereas the player, the only thing that ever really needs to concern you is "do I like this?"

Quote:
The lore/personality/visual design stuff is just an extra, a bonus for casual players or people who are more interested in that kind of thing, so what harm could it possibly do for it to be a little more complex and sophisticated?
Because League of Legends is complex enough, simply through the sheer volume of its roster. It's already a complex game--so the complexity of each individual champion has to take a hit.

Quote:
I agree that not EVERY champion should be like that, actually I agree that MOST champions shouldn't be like that, but when you have such a huge pool of playable characters, I would think it's perfectly ok to have some that are a little more difficult to get into, or that aren't as "readable" as the others.
The Law of Sewage, again. Having these "less readable" champions hurts the game as a whole. Having a champion that isn't as easy to grasp doesn't only affect you--it affects everyone you're playing with, and against. You must keep this in mind. You are not the only player, and in-game, you're the only one with access to your champion's tooltips.

It may not affect you negatively, but the negative effect it can have on the other 9 players is reason enough to not lower standards on a case-by-case basis.

Quote:
I mean, League of Legends already has a bunch of signature characters, it's the reason why right now as I'm typing this I can only see Ashe, Teemo, Kayle, Warwick and Ryze in the background. They are the recognizable ones, the ones beginners will probably be drawn to, and they are the ones who need to fit into very strict readable archetypes. But there are also many "critically acclaimed" champions that are never ever depicted in official promotional art (such as Orianna) who have much more complex designs, who don't really fit into the classical hero/villain type, and have more complicated stories and personalities. And they still seem to have a place in the League, as long as they are viable.
If League is to be the best game it can be, then every champion must live up to the highest standard. I could write another wall of text, but it would pretty much just be a reiteration of this. The existence of more readable champions doesn't mean that other champions can let up slack. And certainly, the lowest standard is not what Riot should aim to satisfy with their designs, new or old. That's like judging the quality of the food your restaurant serves based on the reviews of the homeless guy that eats there sometimes, who is just happy enough that he has scrounged up enough money to buy a meal with.

Now, I have some college work to attend to, but in the meantime, I'd appreciate if you read the OP for this thread. I'm sure it'll answer at least a few questions that you might have regarding the context of these design decisions, and the reasons why settling for less is not a winning move. I know it's a long read, but it was good enough to merit being stickied for a week, and it helps me not have to repeat myself!


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Spada Lunga

Senior Member

03-10-2013

All of my comments always get lost, but I'm not one to stop trying.

About the Vintage Karma skin:

Why were the robes / kimono changed? I understand getting rid of the fans for moving forward (assuming you had to), but couldn't you have just updated her resolution? I mean, you already have the model. Just remove the fans, and update her resolution, and Karma fans will be ecstatic.

What you have done, is updated her look right now into the new model, changed her robes, removed the fans.

To me, this feels like you've just made a new skins that pays homage to her old self. I really want her old self AS a skin. Not a tribute.


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SchrodingersSoda

Junior Member

03-10-2013

Since Scarizard's kit will go through with the rework, can you tell us about any of the other reworked kits she had that didn't go through?


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PodunkTheMighty

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Senior Member

03-10-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotAmes View Post
I will say that, technically, a full dress is a bit of a nightmare at times. Some of the animations we wanted to do with Karma don't support it.
Pole dance recall animation incoming.


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MrTharne

Senior Member

03-10-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by LordTrilo View Post
All of my comments always get lost, but I'm not one to stop trying.

About the Vintage Karma skin:

Why were the robes / kimono changed? I understand getting rid of the fans for moving forward (assuming you had to), but couldn't you have just updated her resolution? I mean, you already have the model. Just remove the fans, and update her resolution, and Karma fans will be ecstatic.

What you have done, is updated her look right now into the new model, changed her robes, removed the fans.

To me, this feels like you've just made a new skins that pays homage to her old self. I really want her old self AS a skin. Not a tribute.
The old model can't handle the new animations/spells, so they can't give her a full dress, simple as that.


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Afrocalypse

Senior Member

03-10-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by LordTrilo View Post
All of my comments always get lost, but I'm not one to stop trying.

About the Vintage Karma skin:

Why were the robes / kimono changed? I understand getting rid of the fans for moving forward (assuming you had to), but couldn't you have just updated her resolution? I mean, you already have the model. Just remove the fans, and update her resolution, and Karma fans will be ecstatic.

What you have done, is updated her look right now into the new model, changed her robes, removed the fans.

To me, this feels like you've just made a new skins that pays homage to her old self. I really want her old self AS a skin. Not a tribute.
Sorry, a homage is all it will be.


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CaughtSword

Member

03-10-2013

Glad to hear about this. I just bought Karma, but I suck with her... so I'm happy that she'll be remade. I'll give her another go!

And when is the new Karma going to be released?