So, about that Karma leak...

First Riot Post
Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

tedweird

Member

03-10-2013

Morello, i think my question was swept away in the previous wave of responses, but i'd still like to know: are there plans for battle-fans to be used again in the future, or are they being laid to rest with the rework?


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Healurownbum

Senior Member

03-10-2013

Can someone explain to me WHY in lords name the weapons for a caster are so important? To me she used them purely as something important to herself something that made her iron will that much easier to keep. As she carried something around that ment the world to her and reminded her what she was fighting for. Isnt that enough? Do they rly have to be used as much as possible? I dont think so. But i guess im wrong... I just hope the dragon crests will look more like whats its suppose to look like ingame, currently to me its a green blob (Sorry who ever made it but screenshots seem to do it no justice rly)


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

SexyShady

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Member

03-10-2013

Lol the ideas that pop up in my head....
When I think of fans in battle, I think of Kagura from Inuyasha. Ya know how she can summon the dead with her fans and make them "dance" for her? It's called Dance of the Dead.
It would be so f-ing amazing if Riot could make a character that could resurrect the corpses from champions around her to attack. Maybe for her ult or something. Or having them decay to be a damaging AoE around corpses would be an amazing teamfighting mechanic.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

ItemsGuy

Senior Member

03-10-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by HarryOrunitia View Post
Honestly, I don't think Karma's fans were so completely detached from her gameplay and concept. They could've reworked her W, E and R (or just one or two of them, really) to better feature the fans. Her connection to Janna and air/wind magic could've been explored some more. I just find it hard to believe that it was impossible to keep the fans while also keeping her a ranged mage.
It's not impossible to keep the fans while also keeping her a ranged mage, but keeping the fans while adhering to Karma's immediate central theme (karma/taijitu) is a bit of an unnecessary stretch and a sub-optimal design decision. They don't convey what Karma's about in her current iteration (duality), so if they're keeping with that, I'd understand why they'd get the axe.

They're not bad, they just don't convey what needs to be conveyed. In a fast-paced competitive game with over 100 playable characters, conveyance ("readability") is paramount.

Quote:
And even if they were only there to add personality, what's so wrong with that in the context of League?
Unnecessary confusion, misleading design elements, visual dead weight, etc.--especially if they act as a defining feature of the champion! "Oh, what does that chick with the fans do?" "Very little that has to do with fans."

A strong design is one whose parts cohere to a unified whole. There's nothing about Rengar that distracts from "this dude's a grizzly-ass wild hunter." There's nothing about Darius that distracts from "this dude's gonna chop you in half." There's nothing about Olaf that distracts from "this dude is going to charge into the fray and not care particularly much about his own wellbeing because he is too busy making sure no skull is left uncracked."

Elements that add personality is good, but that personality must go hand-in-hand with the leading concept. Nothing can be out-of-line, because that results in a weaker design. This is a basic design principle--it exists in every design field, and game design is no exception. Gears of War would be a weaker game if it occasionally paused and you had to beat a level of Snake to continue. "This has nothing to do with what I wanted to play this game for! This does not involve me blasting through ugly aliens as an oatmeal-skinned roid-raging space marine!"

Quote:
I agree that it's not particularly easy to read her gameplay from that, I agree it's a weird design choice, but we can't ignore the fact that this game is full of characters like that, who either have weapons they don't really use (Soraka?) or have weapons they could probably do without (Lux?)
This is also under the assumption that every champion in League is well-designed, and that the existence of old mistakes justifies new ones. I'd also argue that Soraka's and Lux's magic sticks are there to convey "hey these champions are magic and stuff, they're not going to jump at you and instagib you or rapid-fire arrows at you."

Karma's fans don't really tell you what Karma is going to do--the only thing they really hint at is that she has some sort of conal attack. If a weapon is incorporated into a design and not utilized as the basis of said design (whether as a conduit for magical energy, a launcher of projectiles, or a stick with which to hurt people in melee range), it's dead-weight, and it misleads players. As a designer, you don't want those things to happen!


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

ItemsGuy

Senior Member

03-10-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by HarryOrunitia View Post
Ah, not to mention that two small, green jade dragons that are arranged to barely resemble the Yin and Yang symbol, aren't nearly as strong of a connection to that concept as her original black and white design was.
While black and white was a bit closer to the taijitu, the monochrome it effected muddied her visual design--this isn't really good for readability, as it sort of "greys" her out. Having a champion "pop" visually is important, due to the highly visual nature of video games!

Also, the Crest isn't that far from the taijitu--two things swirling around in that sort of dual teardrop shape can be readily related back to it, especially in the context of anything even vaguely mystical.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Afrocalypse

Senior Member

03-10-2013

Well, both sides have their arguments, pro- and contra-fan. I still have to think, everytime I read about how fans fit to her kit or not, about all the useless staffs. But I guess those are like swords, and fans are something not to be added that light-heartedly.
It also seems, while Ames is so nice and tries to respond, there is no way she would ever get her fans back.

So, I give up now. I'm just gonna see what will come. If her emotes and/or traditional skin will include her fans, that would be a nice memento, but anyways I can only be happy that I knew the old Karma and keep her in good memories.
Tbh I will just treat this as a new champion and see if it will be a fun and viable support for me to play.

So, goodbye Karma - though I don't think the skin dedicated to you fits on your replacement, maybe I will use it here and there to remember you - and welcome Karma, I hope I will be able to enjoy playing you.

Yes, this is way over-dramatized, but I just felt like I need to put this out so I can stop caring.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

T33moHat

Member

03-10-2013

ItemsGuy If I could give you all the upvotes I would. I think you nailed exactly what the developers where thinking. Good job.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

SexyShady

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Member

03-10-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Afrocalypse View Post
So, I give up now. I'm just gonna see what will come. If her emotes and/or traditional skin will include her fans, that would be a nice memento, but anyways I can only be happy that I knew the old Karma and keep her in good memories.
Tbh I will just treat this as a new champion and see if it will be a fun and viable support for me to play.

So, goodbye Karma - though I don't think the skin dedicated to you fits on your replacement, maybe I will use it here and there to remember you - and welcome Karma, I hope I will be able to enjoy playing you.
Made me tear up a bit! Helped me make up my mind a bit about her too. Thank you


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

ItemsGuy

Senior Member

03-10-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Afrocalypse View Post
Well, both sides have their arguments, pro- and contra-fan. I still have to think, everytime I read about how fans fit to her kit or not, about all the useless staffs. But I guess those are like swords, and fans are something not to be added that light-heartedly.
It also seems, while Ames is so nice and tries to respond, there is no way she would ever get her fans back.
Staves in fantasy are usually used to express "yo this guy is magical." Unless it's like a bo-staff or something, in which case it's more something along the lines of "watch out son, this guy's a martial artist." Not dead weight just because they aren't hitting people with them! It's to help convey that these guys aren't going to be dishing out physical damage, in the context of frailer characters like Lux and Soraka.

Quote:
So, I give up now. I'm just gonna see what will come. If her emotes and/or traditional skin will include her fans, that would be a nice memento, but anyways I can only be happy that I knew the old Karma and keep her in good memories.
Tbh I will just treat this as a new champion and see if it will be a fun and viable support for me to play.
That's the spirit! Also, I wouldn't say that the "old" Karma is gone forever--the "elegant diplomat with bladed fans" archetype is one that's piqued my interest now that I've thought about it, so if I can come up with a compelling kit for it, I can promise you I'll fight for it once I become a Content Designer in the next few years.

Quote:
So, goodbye Karma - though I don't think the skin dedicated to you fits on your replacement, maybe I will use it here and there to remember you - and welcome Karma, I hope I will be able to enjoy playing you.

Yes, this is way over-dramatized, but I just felt like I need to put this out so I can stop caring.
These responses are actually pretty interesting! I always thought of Karma as "that champion that everyone forgot about," but it seems like her "fans" (heh) are some of the most devoted in the entire community. Certainly gotta figure out what has created that bond!

What, out of curiosity, did you love about old Karma?


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Laser Tornado

Junior Member

03-10-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Siigari View Post
Lol this is double-talk. I appreciate the gesture of good faith, but TELLING a community that if you have Karma pre-rework you'll get a free skin is pretty lame.

If you wanted to really reward Karma players with a free skin you wouldn't have mentioned it, and it would have been a nice surprise. Now you are saying you want to reward Karma faithfuls for having her, but anyone can throw down 3150 IP to get a free skin, and that just muddies the gift.
Other people having something is not the same as taking away from you. You sound like the RIAA.